[RedAlice]

Very good observations. You just pointed out the key issues with Bills the last 3 years. 1) Rex was the wrong hire for personnel - 3-4 guy when D was constructed for 4-3. He wasn't even on the top of the candidates list but he charmed the new owners. Former GM had an eye for talent but never got to hire his own HC. 2) the coaching turnover.

Yeah Hughes is looking very revived in the 4-3 again. He had a sack against eagles.

Speaking of schemes and personnel, Wade's a 3-4 guy, one of the best. But your roster's built for 4-3 is my guess? I guess Wade is making the tweaks but remains to be seen just how smart he is making his schemes fit the personnel. And that's also why EJ was shipped. I read he fits cover 3 corner scheme, the type McDermott wants. And that's why Bills wanted him.

The debate on Wade being 3-4, and Rams built for 4-3 has been ongoing.

But, it seems Wade is skilled at this transition and the defense is better than it was before.

http://www.espn.com/blog/los-angeles-ra ... t-for-rams

A 3-4 that acts like a 4-3

A lot has been made about the Rams going from four down linemen to three under Phillips, but Phillips himself has stressed that "those who can rush are going to rush."

Under Phillips these last two years, the Broncos used three pass-rushers on only 41 offensive snaps, lower than all but four teams during that time. ESPN Stats & Info has the Broncos ranking fourth in the amount of times they utilized five pass-rushers during that stretch, slightly more than Gregg Williams' defense with the Rams. But ESPN Broncos reporter Jeff Legwold, who charts every defensive play, will tell you that Phillips used four pass-rushers the vast majority of the time, continually varying which linebacker he used to get to the quarterback.

For the Rams, it seems like that extra rusher will mainly be Robert Quinn, a two-time Pro Bowler who will probably transition from defensive end to outside linebacker. In all likelihood, Quinn will still spend most of his time trying to get around the edge to get to the quarterback. And nothing will change for Donald; he will remain a three-technique, which means he will continue to line up on the outside shoulder of the opposing guard.

[/zn/]

The debate on Wade being 3-4, and Rams built for 4-3 has been ongoing.

But, it seems Wade is skilled at this transition and the defense is better than it was before.

Yes, exactly.

2 key things and they're important.

1. Wade has done this transition successfully before.

2. There IS NO great difference between a one-gap attacking 4/3 and a one-gap attacking 3/4. Honestly, it basically reduces to Quinn standing up. Donald (when he reports) stays a 3-tech and the DL operates pretty much the same as before, though with more tools to use deception because instead of 2 hands in the dirt ends you have 2 stand up edge rushers, which means the offense doesn't know which one is coming.

From what I am gathering there are differences between how Wilson and Wms use the secondary, but that kind of thing has nothing to do with the whole 3/4 v. 4/3 thing.

I think most people who believe there's a problem switching from this kind of 4/3 to this kind of 3/4 are actually thinking about an entirely different kind of defense---the old 2-gap 3/4 like Parcells used. With that kind of D, the DL is made up of entirely different kinds of guys than you would find in a 4/3. That's not true of Wade's 3/4. It's not the same kind of defense as the 2-gap 3/4. You can transform an attacking 4/3 into a Wade style 3/4 with virtually no issues.

And again this is proven in Wade's history. He has made this kind of conversion before, knows how to do it, and has had success doing it.

,.,,,

[RedAlice]

Yes, exactly.

2 key things and they're important.

1. Wade has done this transition successfully before.

2. There IS NO great difference between a one-gap attacking 4/3 and a one-gap attacking 3/4. Honestly, it basically reduces to Quinn standing up. Donald (when he reports) stays a 3-tech and the DL operates pretty much the same as before, though with more tools to use deception because instead of 2 hands in the dirt ends you have 2 stand up edge rushers, which means the offense doesn't know which one is coming.

From what I am gathering there are differences between how Wilson and Wms use the secondary, but that kind of thing has nothing to do with the whole 3/4 v. 4/3 thing.

I think most people who believe there's an issue switching from this kind of 4/3 to this kind of 3/4 is a problem are actually thinking about an entirely different kind of defense---the old 2-gap 3/4 like Parcells used. With that kind of D, the DL is made up of entirely different kinds of guys than you would fine in a 4/3. That's not true of Wade's 3/4. It's not the same kind of defense. You can transform an attacking 4/3 into a Wade style 3/4 with virtually no issues.

And again this is proven in Wade's history. He has made this kind of conversion before, knows how to do it, and has had success doing it.

,.,,,

yes. and yes.

I know much less about football than all of you, but I did have to go look this up when we hired Wade. I believe in what is proven from his history that I learned, and in his intent to be successful with our Rams.

[aeneas1]

Very good observations. You just pointed out the key issues with Bills the last 3 years. 1) Rex was the wrong hire for personnel - 3-4 guy when D was constructed for 4-3. He wasn't even on the top of the candidates list but he charmed the new owners. Former GM had an eye for talent but never got to hire his own HC. 2) the coaching turnover.

Yeah Hughes is looking very revived in the 4-3 again. He had a sack against eagles.

Speaking of schemes and personnel, Wade's a 3-4 guy, one of the best. But your roster's built for 4-3 is my guess? I guess Wade is making the tweaks but remains to be seen just how smart he is making his schemes fit the personnel. And that's also why EJ was shipped. I read he fits cover 3 corner scheme, the type McDermott wants. And that's why Bills wanted him.

imo "personnel fit" talk is way overblown when it comes to transitioning from a 4-3 to a 3-4, or vice versa, for many reasons, much ado about nothing.... knowing what you're doing on the other hand is a different story and, as others have mentioned, wade's successful track record of making such changes in scheme is beyond impressive.

i posted about the rams move to a 3-4 under wade a few months ago, and included the following chart that shows the success phillips has had... red text indicates 3-4 defenses dating back to the 2000 season, numbers indicate defensive rankings in offensive points allowed, outlined (boxed) numbers show phillips' first year on the job, i.e. how teams fared before and after he installed his 3-4... an interesting takeaway from the chart is how many teams have moved to a 3-4 since the 2000 season, from 4 teams to half the league, no doubt in an effort to better defend against the pass:



re ryan, the ravens were already running a 3-4 when he took over as dc, so were the jets, the bills were the first team he transitioned from 4-3 to 3-4.... that said, when he took over as dc in baltimore he switched from the 3-4 they had been running for 3 years to a 4-3, and then back to a 3-4 a couple of years later - and he helped them to a 1st and 2nd ranking in offensive points allowed with each scheme - life's good when ya have lewis, suggs, pryce, ngata, scott, rolle and reed, all pro-bowlers / all-pros, playin' for ya, eh?

[snackdaddy]

I can see why QB's get so much money. Its gotta be the toughest job. Two years ago Bortles at 24 years old was on his way. 35 TD's and 4400 yards. Now he has to fight for his job. Goes to show no matter how good you are you need people who can protect you and catch the football. Rams QB's have not had that in past years.

[elmendorf]

Yes. Good point. A redshirt year indeed.

Don't forget how young Goff is. I think now, surrounded by a new crew of coaches, he will improve. I am not going to give up on Goff. And he has some weapons now. Patience!

[/zn/]

Yes. Good point. A redshirt year indeed.

Don't forget how young Goff is. I think now, surrounded by a new crew of coaches, he will improve. I am not going to give up on Goff. And he has some weapons now. Patience!

Goff had several things holding him back and IMO trying to reduce it to 1 or 2 is just not going to make a true picture.

* The team was in disarray, for lots of reasons, including not having a running game, which was also for lots of reasons.

* a defensive minded head coach did not have a top offensive staff, though that can (and frequently is) exaggerated. IMO some people clutch at this to avoid realizing how far the problems went, so it seems like there can be a simple fix. That's just wishful thinking.

* and, very importantly, Goff's college offense set him way behind in terms of learning a pro system quickly. If you ignore this, IMO, you;re basically just putting your head in the sand. Not only do most spread qbs have to learn a lot to make the switch to a pro offensive system (which holds up statistically in spite of some exceptions), Goff came from a system that set him much further behind than other spread systems generally do. To this day, going back to Couch, not one single Air Raid or Air Raid variant qb has made it as a consistent NFL starter. They have a lot to learn to execute pro systems at the automatic, 2nd nature level. Goff would have been behind no matter where he went.

* he was also young

* he was a rookie qb, and more times than not rookie qbs struggle

So, they have a deep offensive coaching staff (including great hires like Kromer and Olsen), they have added more weapons, they have addressed the OL, they are working on getting the running game back (though we don't know how much they accomplished with that), AND Goff is no longer a rookie, is a year more mature, and is much more developed in terms of playing a pro system.

....

[snackdaddy]

Yes. Good point. A redshirt year indeed.

Don't forget how young Goff is. I think now, surrounded by a new crew of coaches, he will improve. I am not going to give up on Goff. And he has some weapons now. Patience!

Patience is the word for the day. Goff is still very young. He'll be 23 in mid October. I've always felt an athlete's prime is somewhere between 25 and 30 years old. That is where is body his fully matured and his mind has reached the necessary maturity level. When Goff hits 25 he'll be a seasoned vet. But for now, he still has a lot to learn. He has a chance to be very, very good. But it will take time.

[Zen_Ronin]

Patience is the word for the day. Goff is still very young. He'll be 23 in mid October. I've always felt an athlete's prime is somewhere between 25 and 30 years old. That is where is body his fully matured and his mind has reached the necessary maturity level. When Goff hits 25 he'll be a seasoned vet. But for now, he still has a lot to learn. He has a chance to be very, very good. But it will take time.

This is my mindset as well, and relatively speaking, when he catches up (in age) to the rest of his draft class QB's hell have 2 years of NFL experience under his belt vs their 2 additional college/uni years, relatively speaking*. That could be a huge asset for him. I want the Rams to win and be great as much as anyone else, but I hope they don't give up on Goff too soon. I'm willing to give him this year and next to see how he develops. After that, if he's still just and uncertain quantity, I'd say turf him.

*Not sure I'm explaining that as well as I'd like

[Hacksaw]

This is my mindset as well, and relatively speaking, when he catches up (in age) to the rest of his draft class QB's hell have 2 years of NFL experience under his belt vs their 2 additional college/uni years, relatively speaking*. That could be a huge asset for him. I want the Rams to win and be great as much as anyone else, but I hope they don't give up on Goff too soon. I'm willing to give him this year and next to see how he develops. After that, if he's still just and uncertain quantity, I'd say turf him.

*Not sure I'm explaining that as well as I'd like

Your point was well taken Zen.
We/they could be a little impatient since we have been patient for so long.
Golf needs to show some marked improvement and leadership skills this year or the question marks will arise.
I think you'll see them bringing another vet free agent next year if he flounders this year.
If he plays well and gets his 7 to 9 wins, I think we'll all be feeling better about things.
By the way I think he'll be around for a couple of years at least.