[aeneas1]

pete carroll, prior to the rams seahawks game.

[/zn/]

exactly - there are so many scenarios that define great qb play, great late game qb play, that the 4qc stat doesn't come close to capturing, yet it does manage to capture a lot of meaningless scenarios.

goff, as we all know, is an unfinished product, newly unwrapped, just 14 starts in a competent offense under his belt, just 14 starts in a new system under his belt, and just turned 23 a couple of months ago, yet he:

- has led the rams to a 2nd ranking in offensive scoring.
- has led the rams to the most offensive points per game since the 2001 gsot season.
- ranks in the top 8 in qb rating, td%, int% and yards per attempt.
- ranks in the top 6 in 3rd down qb rating and converting 3rd down pass attempts into 1st downs.
- has led the rams to 10 wins and, almost assuredly, a postseason spot.

it will be great once he gets his shit together.

I think that other than being defensive about Goff for some reason you're not saying anything that different.

Except the part where you both dismiss how much it shows about a qb's development that he can play well in a comeback drive, AND at the same time pretend the other side is saying more than it is.

It will come, obviously. He has already shown signs. He's a young guy, it's on its way.

And no one said it was a be all or end all or the most important thing...it's the people who think Goff is being bashed who are pretending that others are saying that. Hence all the straw manning around here.

It's a thing I personally value in qb play but there are a LOT of things in qb play. For example, one of my best memories of Warner is the TD to Proehl against Tampa that turned what might have been a loss at that point into a a standard highlight moment of Rams fandom. That doesn't mean anyone thought Warner was garbage before that moment. Or Ferragamo to Waddy, 1979. Valuing things like that is natural. But everyone knows it's not the only thing on a good qb's resume---like in Goff's case, having the poise and steadiness and mental toughness to bounce back from bad moments and maintain an even keel. Which we already know about him.

When the Rams do pull out some 4th quarter comebacks--and close games where that will be needed are coming (anywhere from the next game to the last season of his career, there will be some games like that, it's inevitable)---it will be a good thing. We'll like it. It will be another medal on their chests. Fans won't fight about it.

...

....

[aeneas1]

When the Rams do pull out some 4th quarter comebacks--and close games where that will be needed are coming (anywhere from the next game to the last season of his career, there will be some games like that, it's inevitable)---it will be a good thing. We'll like it. It will be another medal on their chests. Fans won't fight about it.

sigh....

i think every nfl fan loves when the improbable occurs, and i'll be as thrilled as anyone else when a rams punt return seals the deal late in a game, or a pick return, or a fumble return, or a thrilling late game offensive drive, but unlike you i understand the improbability of late game heroics, and understand how meaningless 4qc stats are.

tony banks had more 4qc games in his first two years with the rams than goff, so what, bfd, so did austin davis, jamie martin, t.j. rubley, and jeff rutledge to name a few other stiffs who qb'd for the rams - but clearly the rams were in much better hands, late in the game, with those guys under center than with goff because, you know, they had more 4qc games, mama mia.

teams typically have lousy w/l records in games they enter the 4th quarter trailing, even teams with great qbs, even teams with qbs who have been credited with a lot of 4qc games... a few examples: collectively these teams, with their hof qbs (or soon to be hof qbs), won less than 25% of the time when entering the 4th quarter trailing:

2000-2017 patriots .306
1998-2010 colts .342
2012-2015 broncos .357
2004-2017 steelers .295
1983-1998 broncos .230
1983-1999 dolphins .264
1992-2007 packers .156
1979-1992 niners .289
2001-2017 saints .143

but have no fear - for those who have their panties in a bunch over 4qc game counts, goff's will come, and should he prove to be the rams starter for years to come, they'll accumulate, but of course they'll be as meaningless as they are now.

[PARAM]

sigh....

i think every nfl fan loves when the improbable occurs, and i'll be as thrilled as anyone else when a rams punt return seals the deal late in a game, or a pick return, or a fumble return, or a thrilling late game offensive drive, but unlike you i understand the improbability of late game heroics, and understand how meaningless 4qc stats are.

tony banks had more 4qc games in his first two years with the rams than goff, so what, bfd, so did austin davis, jamie martin, t.j. rubley, and jeff rutledge to name a few other stiffs who qb'd for the rams - but clearly the rams were in much better hands, late in the game, with those guys under center than with goff because, you know, they had more 4qc games, mama mia.

teams typically have lousy w/l records in games they enter the 4th quarter trailing, even teams with great qbs, even teams with qbs who have been credited with a lot of 4qc games... a few examples: collectively these teams, with their hof qbs (or soon to be hof qbs), won less than 25% of the time when entering the 4th quarter trailing:

2000-2017 patriots .306
1998-2010 colts .342
2012-2015 broncos .357
2004-2017 steelers .295
1983-1998 broncos .230
1983-1999 dolphins .264
1992-2007 packers .156
1979-1992 niners .289
2001-2017 saints .143

but have no fear - for those who have their panties in a bunch over 4qc game counts, goff's will come, and should he prove to be the rams starter for years to come, they'll accumulate, but of course they'll be as meaningless as they are now.

Excellent stuff.

4QC are terrific but happen a lot less often than fans think. As has been pointed out the criteria is ridiculous and as a result quarterbacks really don't have as many as they are credited, as far as what most fans would think of as a true 4QC. Not only that but to your point.....Brady is credited with three 4QC in 2006 season (vs Buf, Det, SD). New England tied the Buffalo game with 9:37 left on a FG drive that started with 1:05 remaining in the third quarter and was won on a safety (with 8 minutes left). Brady failed on attempts to come back in two other games (week 9 and week 10). So for the record, he's credited with 3 (really 2) and failed twice. And since he had a chance to win the Buffalo game with an offensive scoring drive he actually failed 3 times. Not quite as remarkable as the "record" would suggest.

FWIW, the best "comeback" I can remember was Frank Reich in 1992 leading the Bills back from a 35-3 deficit over the Oilers and Warren Moon, in the second half.

[/zn/]

sigh....

i think every nfl fan loves when the improbable occurs,.

Nice to know you;re not a fan, but, doing the "attribute silly motives to the other side" move is too thin (and, frankly, juvenile) to carry much weight. And going to war against an argument no one made (ie. that 4th q win game counts matter) is a waste of everyone's time. It's a straw man. No one said that.

So going a step at a time. Remember, the point I made in my last post, which you're presumably responding to, was that close games are inevitable for any team. First, denying that is just ludicrous, and second, what happened to weak or bad teams has nothing to do with it because remember IT HAPPENS TO EVERYONE.

Just as an example I already detailed 2001. They had 5 close games that year and the point differential in the other non-close games, playoffs included, was 40-16. That's just an example. In 2001, the point differential in the 5 close games was 20-21.8, with the Rams on the short end. That was one of the most prolific offenses in NFL history, and they had a defense that year too (3rd in yards and 7th in points).

Stuff happens. So, so do close games. And again 2001 is just an example.

And your response is to bring up irrelevant stats? (?) Pretend that your made-up motive flames are relevant? Here's some real logic. The only possible relevant stat would be to demonstrate that there have been strong teams that NEVER had close games. Good luck with that.Since only 2 teams went undefeated in the regular season, btw, that would mean that whatever examples you came up with, ALL their losses were blow-out losses.

I said that from now until the end of Goff's career it is inevitable that the Rams will be in some close games. I don't think there;s any credible way to deny that. Certainly straw manning and throwing around red herrings and making up motive flames doesn't amount to a real counter-argument to the obvious.

I have no idea why someone would want to fight this. There's just no good argument against it.

And on this we partly agree, though I would like to see it put better, you know maybe more adult in its phrasing: for those who have their panties in a bunch over 4qc game counts, goff's will come, and should he prove to be the rams starter for years to come, they'll accumulate, but of course they'll be as meaningless as they are now.

No one ever said "game counts" on this matter, that's just your own misconstruction. That's one of the many cases where you put words in the other guy's mouth then went to war with a fiction. The idea that "counts matter" is just a straw man on your side, and it's not a war against anyone real, since no one SAID counts matter. What I care about is the capacity not the "count." So another bad misread.

Obviously Goff's will come. So we agree on that. Wins are never meaningless. Wins in close games are better than losses in close games. In 4th quarter situations you want a qb who has the same poise and effectiveness under time pressure with the game on the line that he has earlier in games. Cause. You know. That helps you win more games.

And no one said counts matter. (I did say PERCENTAGES do but you would be surprised at how low those are usually.)

Counts came up as a counter-argument to this--that if you're in a close game it's cause you screwed up early. I just said that makes no sense, since guys like Montana and Marino were in a lot of close games, as evidenced by the number, and they're among the best who played....so no it does not reduce to just being bad on offense early in a game.

Somehow you misread that as saying counting up 4th q comeback wins is important. Naw. That was you just completely misreading and then getting into lame motives smears while attacking something no one said.

Do better.

...

[dieterbrock]

FWIW, the best "comeback" I can remember was Frank Reich in 1992 leading the Bills back from a 35-3 deficit over the Oilers and Warren Moon, in the second half.

Perfect example of how flawed this "stat" is.
That comeback to which you speak? It wouldnt count as a 4th quarter comeback because they merely tied the game in the 4th q and won in OT

Silly right?

And if a team is leading going in to the 4th, and the QB were to give up a pick 6 and end up trailing, only to see a rb break a long TD for the win, the QB gets credit for the "4th Q comeback"

So silly.

[snackdaddy]

This whole debate started with the question of whether or not Goff is ready for a big game. I think he already proved that before the game. And the team showed its not all about the quarterback. They're all ready for a big game.

[Hacksaw]

Goff had a little something to do with the outcome. How many runs do you think he checked into? He did throw 2 TDs as well. He did what was necessary to win, therefore, he was ready.

[ramsman34]

This whole debate started with the question of whether or not Goff is ready for a big game. I think he already proved that before the game. And the team showed its not all about the quarterback. They're all ready for a big game.

Exactly, thank you.. We see eye to eye on this. It was a HUGE game and Goff et al were more than ready.

[ramsman34]

[quote="Hacksaw"][/quote]

Which, to me, is all that matters. I don't care how we win as long as we do. And frankly, blowing teams out is a lot more fun than nail biters when watching OUR team. It's fun to watch other tight, last-minute games that don't involve the Rams.