[ramsman34]

On Max. I misread irony sometimes. Ironically.

The other issue. To me it's not either/or and in fact as I said I see that as a false dichotomy. So I don't see having a lead as something that stands opposed to the ability to win at the end in a close game. I see them as just 2 different kinds of game scenarios, and also keep pointing out that good teams will play good teams and that often leads to close games.

Yeah they went 10-4 by dominating a lot of teams.

If they could have pulled out even just 2 of the 3 close losses (Washington, Seattle 1, Phil) they would have been 12-2. In all 3 cases it;s mistakes them cost them in potential game-winning drives at the end.

No one who says they like comeback clutch players is saying all games should or would be like that. BUT close games DO HAPPEN. And when they happen you want a team that can take those.

So which would I rather have?

Both.

You need both.

I think it's false to frame it as a choice as if the 2 things were mutually exclusive.

....

But they ARE mutually exclusive, you can't blow teams out AND have a comeback at the end of the game. We ALL want a QB who is adept at both. But, most would rather have a majority of games where we are ahead and protecting vs coming from behind. We will of course face good teams in the playoffs and greater chance that games are going to be close. So, we will probably get the "comeback scenario" and we will find out. We played close games (score wise) with good teams this season (Wash, Dal, Min <tied in the 4th>, Sea, NO, Phi). some games, Goff had the ball late, made mistakes and we lost. Others, we won, and others weren't as close as the score made it seem. The rest of the games we blew teams out and the Hawks were considered and probably still are, a good team.

I guess Max's original post would have been better if he said "I don't know if Goff is ready to win a game like this" as opposed to "I don't think he is".

Because frankly, we don't know yet. some of us just feel that from what we've seen we think he is ready and can, while others think he isn't and can't.

Over the next 3-6 weeks, we are going to find out most likely - unless the Rams don't make the playoffs, get blown out in a playoff game, or blow everyone else out along the way.

While this is a nice debate, there is little statistical support for either position, can or can't-ready or not ready. We are all going off feelings based on what we have observed.

I simply like how I feel about it better than the opposing feeling.

[PARAM]

Its just one of those cute footnote items. Overcoming an 11 point 1st half deficit on the road to me is more impressive than coming back from 1 down in the beginning of the 4th

I agree. Check out any 4th quarter comeback and there's a 1 in 4 chance it's really nothing more than a game winning drive, even if it's the last score of the game. I went through Brady and Wilson's credits and there are a number of them that are questionable. It's really not taking anything away from them because a GWD is important...it wins the game...and a 4QC is important, it gives you a lead in the 4th that you don't relinquish. But like you said, overcoming an 11 point halftime deficit and keeping your team ahead while the other is clawing back, is pretty damn good too.

The subject was, "is Goff ready for Prime Time"? I think he is but of course, we need proof. We need to be down midway to late in the 4th and have him bring us back. We don't have to say, "geez, I hope he gets another chance" because it will eventually and who the hell wants that over an easy win anyway? But it will arise.

What's interesting is Warner had 3 from 99-01 under Martz (99 NFCCG over Tampa, the Denver opening week MNF game and the 15-14 Giants game when Marshall was injured). Bulger had 10 from 02-05, when the GSOT was less prolific. Given the choice between Warner, Brady or Manning to have the ball in their hands late in the 4th, it wouldn't be an easy choice. I'd go with Warner because I'm a Ram fan but 95 out of 100 football fans of many teams would probably go with Brady or Manning.

While this is a nice debate, there is little statistical support for either position, can or can't-ready or not ready. We are all going off feelings based on what we have observed.

I simply like how I feel about it better than the opposing feeling.

It's just a guess but the overwhelming majority of Ram fans probably feel the same way.

[dieterbrock]

I agree. Check out any 4th quarter comeback and there's a 1 in 4 chance it's really nothing more than a game winning drive, even if it's the last score of the game. I went through Brady and Wilson's credits and there are a number of them that are questionable. It's really not taking anything away from them because a GWD is important...it wins the game...and a 4QC is important, it gives you a lead in the 4th that you don't relinquish. But like you said, overcoming an 11 point halftime deficit and keeping your team ahead while the other is clawing back, is pretty damn good too.

The subject was, "is Goff ready for Prime Time"? I think he is but of course, we need proof. We need to be down midway to late in the 4th and have him bring us back. We don't have to say, "geez, I hope he gets another chance" because it will eventually and who the hell wants that over an easy win anyway? But it will arise.

What's interesting is Warner had 3 from 99-01 under Martz (99 NFCCG over Tampa, the Denver opening week MNF game and the 15-14 Giants game when Marshall was injured). Bulger had 10 from 02-05, when the GSOT was less prolific. Given the choice between Warner, Brady or Manning to have the ball in their hands late in the 4th, it wouldn't be an easy choice. I'd go with Warner because I'm a Ram fan but 95 out of 100 football fans of many teams would probably go with Brady or Manning.



It's just a guess but the overwhelming majority of Ram fans probably feel the same way.

Right because if your QB is so good that they have the lead for the entire 4th Q, there is no opportunity for a "4th Q comeback"
The stat is stupid.
Goff put the ball on Kupp's hands for a game winner, but Kupp couldnt haul it in. No 4th Q comeback.
Wilson only saw the red zone 1 time against the Rams in their 42-7 loss. No 4th Q comeback.
Hardly the same impact though....

[snackdaddy]

Absolutely correct. This discussion became derailed when the subject of the QB comeback stat was questioned....or more accurately ridiculed with a tongue in cheek example presented. Nobody is questioning the importance of having a QB capable of bringing a team back late in games. Hell, bringing them back in the 2nd half is great too.

The numbers being questioned aren't real numbers or at least not in the way most level headed fans look at it. That doesn't mean Marino, Brady or P Manning aren't kings of the comeback. They are and any team would love a QB who could perform like that right? But the numbers are skewed. When I look at Brady and it says he's got 41 4th quarter comebacks, 52 game winning drives, that jumps out at me. That's like 2-3 a year.

Then you take a closer look and see this one where the Patriots scored with almost 14 minutes left in the 4th to win. Or this one when they kicked a FG to up with 10:34 left and then scored later to make it a 9 point win. Or this one when they scored with 14:55 left to make it 28-21, another 3 minutes later to make it 35-21 and won the game 52-28. I'd hardly classify those as what we expect to see in a come from behind 4th quarter comeback, down midway to late in the 4th, pressure situation, game on the line. That's 3 in the 16 I checked. Of course they meet the criteria for one or the other (4QC/GWD) because they occurred in the 4th quarter but let's get real. It enhancing a legend that doesn't really need enhancing. And in other cases it creates the misconception quarterback A was better in pressure situations than QB B.

It's a stat that needs refining just like the catch/ground rule or the fumble out of the end zone rule. But that's another subject.

Goff will be fine. It's clear he handles pressure situations good for a youngster and he should only get better. Max knows that and he simply said, "he's not there yet". I think he will be there very soon, maybe even this season. A chance may arise and we'll see. We will be playing with a lot on the line the next few weeks.

Yeah, I don't think anyone's disputing Goff isn't there yet. He's a 23 year old kid who just finished his 21st career game. But he's growing with each game. Its not implausible that he could begin his legacy in comebacks during the playoffs.

But my point isn't that. What if the opposing team is 9 down and comes back to make it two point game with 5 minutes left and he performs in the clutch to run out the clock or put it out of reach? Its not a 4th quarter comeback because but it isn't any less important. Would people say "Yeah, but he still hasn't come from behind"?

For me, I'd rather he be good enough to lead them to a wire to wire victory. This whole comeback thing is overrated in my opinion. Be good enough not to have to come back. But also be good enough when it counts. I think he'll get there. Like his father once said, he's never not gotten better.

[ramsman34]

Yeah, I don't think anyone's disputing Goff isn't there yet. He's a 23 year old kid who just finished his 21st career game. But he's growing with each game. Its not implausible that he could begin his legacy in comebacks during the playoffs.

But my point isn't that. What if the opposing team is 9 down and comes back to make it two point game with 5 minutes left and he performs in the clutch to run out the clock or put it out of reach? Its not a 4th quarter comeback because but it isn't any less important. Would people say "Yeah, but he still hasn't come from behind"?

For me, I'd rather he be good enough to lead them to a wire to wire victory. This whole comeback thing is overrated in my opinion. Be good enough not to have to come back. But also be good enough when it counts. I think he'll get there. Like his father once said, he's never not gotten better.

Love all this!

[/zn/]

But they ARE mutually exclusive, you can't blow teams out AND have a comeback at the end of the game.

That would be a valid point if every player only played one game a career.

They don't. They play many games. And some of those games are different.

So with good teams, the "blowout" and the "comeback" both happen in any given season, since good teams will play other good teams and a few times a year, on average, end up in a close game.

Even the high flying 2001 GSOT Rams ended up in close games. I am not counting games where the Rams have a comfortable lead in the 4th (2 scores or more ahead) and the other team chips away at it but comes up short. So a close game is one where at any point in the 4th one or the other team is ahead by a beatable margin (say, 8 points) with enough time left to score, or they're tied at any point in the 4th with time left to score.

To open that season, the Rams beat the Eagles in OT 20-17.

In week 5 they beat the Giants 15-14. To do it they came from behind in the last 4 minutes.

In week 7 they lost to New Orleans 31-34 after being tied halfway through the 4th.

In week 11, they lost to Tampa 24-17 after the Bux pulled ahead early in the 4th and the Rams never could score again.

In the superbowl the Rams tied it with 1:30 to go but the Patz drove and won it 20-17.

So out of 19 games that year they were in 5 legit close games, and won 2 of them.

You can end up in a close game by not playing well early OR by just playing a good team that can keep up with you. Or sometimes that just the way it goes.

But that's football. Otherwise your hypothetical blowout team would always go undefeated.


...

[/zn/]

Yeah, I don't think anyone's disputing Goff isn't there yet. He's a 23 year old kid who just finished his 21st career game. But he's growing with each game. Its not implausible that he could begin his legacy in comebacks during the playoffs.

But my point isn't that. What if the opposing team is 9 down and comes back to make it two point game with 5 minutes left and he performs in the clutch to run out the clock or put it out of reach? Its not a 4th quarter comeback because but it isn't any less important. Would people say "Yeah, but he still hasn't come from behind"?

For me, I'd rather he be good enough to lead them to a wire to wire victory. This whole comeback thing is overrated in my opinion. Be good enough not to have to come back. But also be good enough when it counts. I think he'll get there. Like his father once said, he's never not gotten better.

That situation is called a game-winning drive, if they score. Or it doesn;t have to lead to a score, just not giving the ball back and controlling the clock. That is often something that falls on the qb though usually if it's just controlling the clock while ahead it falls on the playcalling. Either way if your qb can keep his cool in a tough situation late in a game with the win on the line then yeah that's good...that probably means he's capable of comeback wins when the situation arises too.

And whether or not you lead all the way through a game has nothing to do with whether you're "good enough."

Good teams end up in close games for lots of reasons, including, to name just one, playing another good team on the road or playing another good team that just has a hot hand.

This whole idea that if you can't control the lead all the way through a game it means you've screwed up in some way...it's just not logical. All good teams end up in close games for lots of reasons.

Otherwise your hypothetical "always ahead" team would never lose. There are only 2 teams in all NFL history that went undefeated in the regular season.

...

[aeneas1]

But my point isn't that. What if the opposing team is 9 down and comes back to make it two point game with 5 minutes left and he performs in the clutch to run out the clock or put it out of reach? Its not a 4th quarter comeback because but it isn't any less important. Would people say "Yeah, but he still hasn't come from behind"?

exactly - there are so many scenarios that define great qb play, great late game qb play, that the 4qc stat doesn't come close to capturing, yet it does manage to capture a lot of meaningless scenarios.

goff, as we all know, is an unfinished product, newly unwrapped, just 14 starts in a competent offense under his belt, just 14 starts in a new system under his belt, and just turned 23 a couple of months ago, yet he:

- has led the rams to a 2nd ranking in offensive scoring.
- has led the rams to the most offensive points per game since the 2001 gsot season.
- ranks in the top 8 in qb rating, td%, int% and yards per attempt.
- ranks in the top 6 in 3rd down qb rating and converting 3rd down pass attempts into 1st downs.
- has led the rams to 10 wins and, almost assuredly, a postseason spot.

it will be great once he gets his shit together.

[PARAM]

The stat is stupid.
Goff put the ball on Kupp's hands for a game winner, but Kupp couldnt haul it in. No 4th Q comeback.

It's stupid in it's current form. I can see if the score occurs at least halfway through the 4th quarter AND the drive BEGINS in the 4th quarter. Here's one that makes that stat STUPID. The Patriots trail the Bills by 10 in the third quarter (17-7). They hold Buffalo and force a punt and get the ball with 1:05 left in the 3rd. They drive down and kick the tying FG at the 9:37 mark of the 4th. They kick off and the Bills get it on their 9 with 9:27 left. After an incomplete pass and -1 yard run, Losman gets tackled in the end zone for a safety....19-17 New England. Brady was credited with a 4QC....you can check.....#22, 9-10-2006.....yet after Buffalo's free kick he throws a pick on the first play. The defense holds them and they punt, then the Patriots run.....literally run.....out the clock. Can anybody in their right mind call that a 4th quarter comeback? That's no more of a comeback than Goff's pass off of Kupps hands.

But my point isn't that. What if the opposing team is 9 down and comes back to make it two point game with 5 minutes left and he performs in the clutch to run out the clock or put it out of reach? Its not a 4th quarter comeback because but it isn't any less important. Would people say "Yeah, but he still hasn't come from behind"?

If the QB drove them down to take the lead by 9, then it's neither a 4QC or a GWD. They have to take the lead in the 4th for a GWD. So under your scenario, it's simply a win for that QB.

[snackdaddy]

If the QB drove them down to take the lead by 9, then it's neither a 4QC or a GWD. They have to take the lead in the 4th for a GWD. So under your scenario, it's simply a win for that QB.

Exactly my point. Its not a game winning drive but it would be a clutch performance needed because the other team had momentum and it put the game out of reach at the end. Just because it wasn't a GWD or 4QC doesn't mean its not clutch.