[Elvis]

for example, where I pointed out that even further into the season, when Tavon should have been healthier and more acquainted with the system, he just wasn't being used in the passing game.

He still wasn't there for the install and didn't have an opportunity to develop a chemistry with Goff. Very similar arguments have been made for Sammy.

How valid they are, i can't really say.

This coming season will be a pretty big tell...

[ramsman34]

He, he being McV, is already going to do those things. The stuff you list there, which makes up half of the TA equation. (Though you didn't list being a running back, while in 2015/16 combined he averaged 7.2 a carry.)

The question now is, can McV tap into the kind of pass plays we already know Tavon can do, and add that to the mix too. And the obvious answer is yes--he can do that. It was done before, it can be done again. If anything, being on the same field with Woods and Kupp will open up more of that for Tavon.

Is it up to Tavon to catch on to things and benefit from a whole camp? I already said that in this thread--yeah, probably.

Is it up to McV to program those things in more, and get TA active in the passing games in ways we've already seen from TA before? Sure, probably.

In 2017 he didn't see any need for those things. Now, however, I doubt if he would have kept him if he didn't intend to use those things.

..

Well they had to pay him $5 mil regardless so that is a factor. And yes, McVay certainly is capable of getting Tay involved. But, as McBae and DB pointed out, it will come at the expense of other guys' targets - and McVay trusts those other guys and they have truly proved themselves. It will be a challenge. There is only one ball. And Tay has to show he can do things the way McVay wants them done to some extent. I do not discount Tay as a change of pace RB. He can do damage there and TG3 can't take every snap. So, I am sure we will see Tay in that role, perhaps even more so than at WR. Then again, he might get traded, which would not surprise me at all.

[Elvis]

Well they had to pay him $5 mil regardless so that is a factor. And yes, McVay certainly is capable of getting Tay involved. But, as McBae and DB pointed out, it will come at the expense of other guys' targets - and McVay trusts those other guys and they have truly proved themselves. It will be a challenge. There is only one ball. And Tay has to show he can do things the way McVay wants them done to some extent. I do not discount Tay as a change of pace RB. He can do damage there and TG3 can't take every snap. So, I am sure we will see Tay in that role, perhaps even more so than at WR. Then again, he might get traded, which would not surprise me at all.

Really, you can make a pretty strong argument that nobody get the ball enough.

Gurley was a work horse but some will say he was underused in critical situations. Sammy didn't see much action considering his status. Everett all but disappeared as the season progressed.

At one point Tavon was the secret key to our running game but then opinion became he was about as useful a an infected appendix.

It's a good problem to have...

[/zn/]

Well they had to pay him $5 mil regardless so that is a factor. And yes, McVay certainly is capable of getting Tay involved. But, as McBae and DB pointed out, it will come at the expense of other guys' targets - and McVay trusts those other guys and they have truly proved themselves. It will be a challenge. There is only one ball. And Tay has to show he can do things the way McVay wants them done to some extent. I do not discount Tay as a change of pace RB. He can do damage there and TG3 can't take every snap. So, I am sure we will see Tay in that role, perhaps even more so than at WR. Then again, he might get traded, which would not surprise me at all.

These discussions lose their bearings sometimes. I started out on this issue by saying yes TA is capable of contributing in the passing game (not as a fully formed real receiver, but still---he can). Somehow then I was debating folks who read that as me "blaming" McVay. Now it's debating people who think I said feature him all the time and take targets away from others. None of that is what I was talking about.

Anyway, granted that in a spread the ball around offense, I am not sure there is such a thing as "at the expense of someone." The reason you use Tavon in the passing game is that you are trying to get him the ball in space, and you're doing that because of the potential for explosive plays. So the question then becomes, does it benefit the offense as a whole if Tavon makes good on explosive plays? Sure--partly because of the plays themselves, and partly because if he can do it then the defense has to account for it and that helps other guys.

He had 52 catches in 2015. Let's say they get him 40 in 2018. That;s about what Watkins had. Or maybe it's less than that even and he is essentially splitting time with Reynolds and/or Thomas. That's fine too. Whatever works. Either way I think he will get more than 22 targets.

Or they could end up letting him go.

....

[moklerman]

I have been puzzled by Tavon's under use by McVay and think it's easy to fall into the trap of looking at his cumulative numbers in previous years. Dieter makes a good point about the actual per play numbers as opposed to the totals and that's the current problem with Tavon. The other skill players on offense have acclimated to taking advantage of their opportunities when they get them while Tavon seems to need a TON of touches to finally break off one of those spectacular plays.

Wish they could lure Martz out of "retirement" to coach the WR's again. If anyone could get Tavon producing like a real WR, I think it would be him. But, as Elvis said, Watkins is gone and Tavon will have a full camp and is healthy so there will be no more excuses for him. I think we're all hoping for the best.

[/zn/]

I have been puzzled by Tavon's under use by McVay and think it's easy to fall into the trap of looking at his cumulative numbers in previous years. Dieter makes a good point about the actual per play numbers as opposed to the totals and that's the current problem with Tavon. The other skill players on offense have acclimated to taking advantage of their opportunities when they get them while Tavon seems to need a TON of touches to finally break off one of those spectacular plays.

Wish they could lure Martz out of "retirement" to coach the WR's again. If anyone could get Tavon producing like a real WR, I think it would be him. But, as Elvis said, Watkins is gone and Tavon will have a full camp and is healthy so there will be no more excuses for him. I think we're all hoping for the best.

I think people continually make the mistake with Tavon of assessing him as a WR (and he's not a WR). That way they come up with negative comparisons. It's a deep old habit and skews what gets said about him. Most of the negative things I see about Tavon look at him as a receiver. But that;s not what he is. He;s an explosive offensive weapon you can use in various ways but if you isolate receiving or running he doesn;t add up assessed as just a receiver or just as a runner.

There are things you can do with him to get him the ball on passing plays and while it;s never going to look like Kupp, the point is to get him in space for explosive plays. And the point of THAT is not just the explosive plays but the threat of them.

Which just leaves open the question, is McV interested in doing that kind of thing. When they first hired McV I thought he wouldn't be. Maybe now he is.

Right now I don't see them adding anything to the offense...this off-season appears to be all defense. So to maintain a high level they have to increase production not just from Kupp and Woods and Gurley (which is already pretty good right there), but they also have to find something among the most promising of the rest---Tavon, Everett, Reynolds, Thomas. (I don't put Higbee here because I have doubts about him.)

[moklerman]

I think people continually make the mistake with Tavon of assessing him as a WR (and he's not a WR). That way they come up with negative comparisons. It's a deep old habit and skews what gets said about him. Most of the negative things I see about Tavon look at him as a receiver. But that;s not what he is. He;s an explosive offensive weapon you can use in various ways but if you isolate receiving or running he doesn;t add up assessed as just a receiver or just as a runner.

There are things you can do with him to get him the ball on passing plays and while it;s never going to look like Kupp, the point is to get him in space for explosive plays. And the point of THAT is not just the explosive plays but the threat of them.

Which just leaves open the question, is McV interested in doing that kind of thing. When they first hired McV I thought he wouldn't be. Maybe now he is.

Right now I don't see them adding anything to the offense...this off-season appears to be all defense. So to maintain a high level they have to increase production not just from Kupp and Woods and Gurley (which is already pretty good right there), but they also have to find something among the most promising of the rest---Tavon, Everett, Reynolds, Thomas. (I don't put Higbee here because I have doubts about him.)

Regardless of how he's labeled, WR or RB or "playmaker", I think it's been established that it takes too many attempts to get to that elusive, explosive play. One can look at the fact that he scored 8 TD's, which is pretty respectable, and be misled by the number.

Because he caught 59 passes or scored 8 TD's isn't cause to believe he can be viable, just that he was given opportunities in a unique situation. In an archaic, ineffective, Jeff Fisher offense where there aren't playmakers or efficiency on offense, a guy like Tavon will get a lot more jet sweeps and screen passes than in most any other offense. So, when he's put into an offense that doesn't rely on those plays as it's prayers for production, he becomes dubious.

Now, had he produced those numbers in a more conventional setting, yes, it would lead one to surmise that the production could/should be replicated. Considering the widespread production enjoyed by the Rams and Redskins under McVay's leadership I think it's fair to be skeptical of Tavon at this point. One hopes that McVay can get more out of Tavon and the fact the Rams paid a decent price to keep him this year suggests he thinks he can.

He's earned the benefit of doubt but I think Tavon will have to be broken down and re-taught how to be a better NFL player. I'm assuming that started last year and will continue under McVay. Relegating him to out-physical the opposition would be a waste.

[dieterbrock]

These discussions lose their bearings sometimes. I started out on this issue by saying yes TA is capable of contributing in the passing game (not as a fully formed real receiver, but still---he can). Somehow then I was debating folks who read that as me "blaming" McVay.

I wonder how that happened?
Oh right maybe it was comments like this:

I find it hard to believe that Cignetti could get more out of the guy than McVay can.

[Legends]

I have a gut feeling (what's that worth) that Tavon and McVay are going to surprise a lot of us this year.

[Elvis]

I have a gut feeling (what's that worth) that Tavon and McVay are going to surprise a lot of us this year.

I will not be surprised if this is true. Then again, i won't be surprised if Tavon doesn't make the team...