[dieterbrock]

Agree with everything in your post except this ^^^^^^.


Screw the steroid guys. Some of them would have been in without the shit and that is part of the reason they shouldn't be. They didn't just want to be great, they wanted to be the greatest even if it was by artificial means. That's lame and the sentence should be, "you lose". When Joe Jackson is put in the HOF along with Pete Rose, I might soften my view of letting the real cheaters into the HOF. And even then I'm not sure I would lean towards acceptance. Fuck them.

I couldn't care less about Shoeless Joe Jackson, and Rose isn't eligible, plain and simple.
Bonds and Clemens are 2 of the best baseball players in my lifetime and any "Hall of Fame" that doesn't have them in it, but has a Harold Baines, is no HOF for me.
There are guys in the HOF who took amphetamines, HGH, Steroids etc and just didn't get caught. IMO, its head in the sand stuff to think otherwise.
In any event, its gradually become a "Hall of pretty Good" anyways, so it is what it is.
When they let Big Papi in, it will complete the hypocrisy of it all

[PARAM]

I couldn't care less about Shoeless Joe Jackson, and Rose isn't eligible, plain and simple.

Why? Because Rose was suspended indefinately for gambling and lying about it? How about the jackasses like Bonds, McGwire, Sosa, Clemens et al who were known steroid users, who lied about it? They should all be suspended from baseball indefinately. They shouldn't be allowed anywhere near MLB or it's affiliates (meaning McGwire or Bonds or any of them shouldn't be coaching either). And under those parameters, they would be no different than Pete Rose....ineligible.

[dieterbrock]

Why? Because Rose was suspended indefinately for gambling and lying about it? How about the jackasses like Bonds, McGwire, Sosa, Clemens et al who were known steroid users, who lied about it? They should all be suspended from baseball indefinately. They shouldn't be allowed anywhere near MLB or it's affiliates (meaning McGwire or Bonds or any of them shouldn't be coaching either). And under those parameters, they would be no different than Pete Rose....ineligible.

Apples and oranges.
Rose isn't eligible because he cut a deal to avoid going to prison. Its not the same thing. (Its not a suspension) I think he belongs in the HOF, but understand why he isn't.
I can argue all day about why I think the steroid guys belong, but Rose has nothing to do with that conversation

[PARAM]

I can argue all day about why I think the steroid guys belong

I know you can and I can argue equally as long and hard about why I think they don't belong. I think the voters currently favor that viewpoint though it may change over time and the cheaters will get a plaque. Actually some of the steroid guys are in the HOF. There was an exhibit when I went 2 years ago entitled, "In the Shadow of Homers". It has Sosa and McGwire's jersey's hanging in it along with a sign saying "No Body's better than Canseco's" and a picture of Ryan Braun. It's awesome. They're in so they should stop complaining!!!!

[moklerman]

That's an interesting take.

You mean there were others more deserving of a unanamous selection because they were better than Mo? Who? Please give me those examples.

I would imagine there was a long list of players deserving of unanimous entry if not for petty agendas. My baseball knowledge is admittedly lacking but Babe Ruth, Ty Cobb, Henry Aaron, Jackie Robinson...it seems that all of those an many more should have been obvious, uncontested entries into the HOF. Other than "unanimous" being some unwritten honor that voters got some sort of satisfaction out of depriving.

Maybe my understanding of what a HOF'r is is a problem. To me, it's a binary thing. Is player X a HOF? Yes or no. Babe Ruth, yes. How anyone could argue that he isn't a HOF player is beyond me.

[PARAM]

I would imagine there was a long list of players deserving of unanimous entry if not for petty agendas. My baseball knowledge is admittedly lacking but Babe Ruth, Ty Cobb, Henry Aaron, Jackie Robinson...it seems that all of those an many more should have been obvious, uncontested entries into the HOF. Other than "unanimous" being some unwritten honor that voters got some sort of satisfaction out of depriving.

Maybe my understanding of what a HOF'r is is a problem. To me, it's a binary thing. Is player X a HOF? Yes or no. Babe Ruth, yes. How anyone could argue that he isn't a HOF player is beyond me.

I agree. But how does that make Rivera "not as great as" ? or make them "more deserving" than Rivera? Babe Ruth was a great pitcher and a great hitter. He may have been the one guy greater than Rivera. Cobb? One of the dirtiest players in baseball who went into the stands to beat up a guy with no hands who had been heckling him? A singles hitter like Rose. Deserving yes. 65 postseason at bats with a .262 PS average. Greater than Rivera? I doubt that. Henry Aaron? Sure, should have been unanamous. The all time home run king until Bonds decided to turn back the clock 15 years with the help of the cream...or was it the clear? Was Aaron greater than Rivera? I guess if you believe homers are better than saves, then yeah. I think they both were equally great at what they did. Jackie Robinson? Sure for being the first black to play MLB. His stats? Unimpressive. His claim to fame on the field was hitting and stolen bases. He hit .311 in an era when .300 was like .250 today and he only successfully stole 69% of the time. I think the number those numbers guy point to is 85%. But yeah, he was famous and it is the hall of fame so he should have been unanimous too.

[moklerman]

I agree. But how does that make Rivera "not as great as" ? or make them "more deserving" than Rivera? Babe Ruth was a great pitcher and a great hitter. He may have been the one guy greater than Rivera. Cobb? One of the dirtiest players in baseball who went into the stands to beat up a guy with no hands who had been heckling him? A singles hitter like Rose. Deserving yes. 65 postseason at bats with a .262 PS average. Greater than Rivera? I doubt that. Henry Aaron? Sure, should have been unanamous. The all time home run king until Bonds decided to turn back the clock 15 years with the help of the cream...or was it the clear? Was Aaron greater than Rivera? I guess if you believe homers are better than saves, then yeah. I think they both were equally great at what they did. Jackie Robinson? Sure for being the first black to play MLB. His stats? Unimpressive. His claim to fame on the field was hitting and stolen bases. He hit .311 in an era when .300 was like .250 today and he only successfully stole 69% of the time. I think the number those numbers guy point to is 85%. But yeah, he was famous and it is the hall of fame so he should have been unanimous too.

I'm not trying to knock Rivera. But to say that he is THE player deserving of unanimous induction is over rating him IMO. Putting a ranking on him that doesn't, IMO, equal his importance to the history of the game. Great closer. Perhaps the greatest closer ever. But still just a closer. That position doesn't carry the same weight as a position player that plays every day or even a dominant starter from what I've seen.

Not that it's a perfect analogy but it would be like putting the greatest punter ever in higher standing than Johnny Unitas or Joe Montana, etc.

[PARAM]

I'm not trying to knock Rivera. But to say that he is THE player deserving of unanimous induction is over rating him IMO. Putting a ranking on him that doesn't, IMO, equal his importance to the history of the game. Great closer. Perhaps the greatest closer ever. But still just a closer. That position doesn't carry the same weight as a position player that plays every day or even a dominant starter from what I've seen.

Not that it's a perfect analogy but it would be like putting the greatest punter ever in higher standing than Johnny Unitas or Joe Montana, etc.

LMAO!!! The Greatest Closer = The Greatest Punter?

If I were to use a baseball/football analogy I would equate the closer to the LT. You need to make a play to win a game and many times it's a pass, you need protection from your LT. You need to protect a lead you have built in a game and it's the 8th or 9th inning? You call on your best pitcher, your closer. If starters could go 9 innings and let's face it, few of them can, you wouldn't need a closer. The high for IP the last 14 years has only exceeded 250 innings 3 times. That number used to exceed 300 IP. So comparing a great starter to a great closer, the former seriously needs the latter.

[dieterbrock]

I'm not trying to knock Rivera. But to say that he is THE player deserving of unanimous induction is over rating him IMO. Putting a ranking on him that doesn't, IMO, equal his importance to the history of the game. Great closer. Perhaps the greatest closer ever. But still just a closer. That position doesn't carry the same weight as a position player that plays every day or even a dominant starter from what I've seen.

Not that it's a perfect analogy but it would be like putting the greatest punter ever in higher standing than Johnny Unitas or Joe Montana, etc.

There is no bigger fan of Mariano Rivera than me.
And I totally agree with what you’re saying.
To finally break down this stupid barrier and finally elect a guy unanimously? Couldn’t have picked a classier guy, a true nobleman.
But to say he’s more deserved than anyone else? That’s just silly

[dieterbrock]

I know you can and I can argue equally as long and hard about why I think they don't belong. I think the voters currently favor that viewpoint though it may change over time and the cheaters will get a plaque. Actually some of the steroid guys are in the HOF. There was an exhibit when I went 2 years ago entitled, "In the Shadow of Homers". It has Sosa and McGwire's jersey's hanging in it along with a sign saying "No Body's better than Canseco's" and a picture of Ryan Braun. It's awesome. They're in so they should stop complaining!!!!

Well, the cheaters to which you speak are the ones guilty of...
Getting caught
There are “cheaters” in the hall who have have broken rules, taken stuff. They just didn’t get caught.
Ivan Rodriguez and Pedro Martinez were both on the dirty list, but they’re in the hall. So how does that work?