Rams Fans United - Los Angeles Rams Fan Discussion Forum

I've seen lots of venom squirted at the analyst types at PFF. Whether the PFF rating on a Ram starter seems too low, or the PFF bastids miscounted how many sacks Noteboom gave up in our 2022 loss to the Bills, or whatever axe guys want to grind on PFF's head....

anyhow, here's some ointment for all those scars & welts PFF have left on Rams faithful:

Per their 7 Round 2023 Mock NFL Draft....seems PFF were very favorable towards McSnead's Picks.

Per pff.com 7-Round Mock 2023 NFL Draft:

Rd/Pick/Team/Player MockPicked/Position///////RAM ACTUAL Pick
2/#51/MIAMI/STEVE AVILA, TEXAS CHRISTIAN/OG/ LAR#36
3/#79/COLTS/TRE'HODGES-TOMLINSON, TCU/CB///LAR#182
3/#96/CARDS/BYRON YOUNG/TENNESSEE/EDGE// LAR#77
3/#102/49ERS/KOBIE TURNER, WAKE FOREST/DI/LAR89
4/#129/DALLAS/ZACK EVANS//RB//////////LAR#215
4/#132/CAROLINA/DAVIS ALLEN/TE////////LAR#175
5/#158/VIKINGS/STETSON BENNETT/QB///LAR#128
5/#177/RAMS!! /NICK HAMPTON/EDGE/RAMS ACTUAL PICK #161
6/#187/PATRIOTS/QUINDELL JOHNSON/S////RAMS UDFA
6/#198/SEATTLE/JASON TAYLOR II/S////////LAR#234
6/#199/RAVENS/OCHAUN MATHIS/EDGE////LAR#189
6/#212/DALLAS/PUKA NACUA/WR////////////LAR#177
6/#214/COLTS/DESJUAN JOHNSON, DI//////LAR#259
7/#221/RAIDAHS/WARREN McLENDON/OL//LAR#174
7/#232/PACKERS/RASHAD TORRENCE/S//////RAMS UDFA

According to those analytical types at PFF, McSnead bagged 15 Draft-eligible
players.....AND, PFF also predicted we'd pick Nick Hampton!
...so maybe PFF is not so bad, huh?

Cheers from Vancouver, BC

CanuckRightWinger wrote:I've seen lots of venom squirted at the analyst types at PFF. Whether the PFF rating on a Ram starter seems too low, or the PFF bastids miscounted how many sacks Noteboom gave up in our 2022 loss to the Bills, or whatever axe guys want to grind on PFF's head....

anyhow, here's some ointment for all those scars & welts PFF have left on Rams faithful:

Per their 7 Round 2023 Mock NFL Draft....seems PFF were very favorable towards McSnead's Picks.

Per pff.com 7-Round Mock 2023 NFL Draft:

Rd/Pick/Team/Player MockPicked/Position///////RAM ACTUAL Pick
2/#51/MIAMI/STEVE AVILA, TEXAS CHRISTIAN/OG/ LAR#36
3/#79/COLTS/TRE'HODGES-TOMLINSON, TCU/CB///LAR#182
3/#96/CARDS/BYRON YOUNG/TENNESSEE/EDGE// LAR#77
3/#102/49ERS/KOBIE TURNER, WAKE FOREST/DI/LAR89
4/#129/DALLAS/ZACK EVANS//RB//////////LAR#215
4/#132/CAROLINA/DAVIS ALLEN/TE////////LAR#175
5/#158/VIKINGS/STETSON BENNETT/QB///LAR#128
5/#177/RAMS!! /NICK HAMPTON/EDGE/RAMS ACTUAL PICK #161
6/#187/PATRIOTS/QUINDELL JOHNSON/S////RAMS UDFA
6/#198/SEATTLE/JASON TAYLOR II/S////////LAR#234
6/#199/RAVENS/OCHAUN MATHIS/EDGE////LAR#189
6/#212/DALLAS/PUKA NACUA/WR////////////LAR#177
6/#214/COLTS/DESJUAN JOHNSON, DI//////LAR#259
7/#221/RAIDAHS/WARREN McLENDON/OL//LAR#174
7/#232/PACKERS/RASHAD TORRENCE/S//////RAMS UDFA

According to those analytical types at PFF, McSnead bagged 15 Draft-eligible
players.....AND, PFF also predicted we'd pick Nick Hampton!
...so maybe PFF is not so bad, huh?

Cheers from Vancouver, BC

The way I read it, they're saying we picked Avila (15 slots), Young (19) and Turner (13) a bit early but not bad. Bennett a round early (30 slots), Nacua (45 slots) and McClendon (47) a round and a half early. But we got absolute steals in Evans (discipline), Hodges-Tomlinson (size), Torrance and Q Johnson.

What was their actual review on the Rams draft? Logically, it should be glowing......even if self serving like most draftnik's reviews.

I liked our draft. As far as drafting players earlier than consensus, I've always believed, if you like the guy, take him. Trust your scouts and there is no "early". There's measurables, interviews and analytics, ideally a combination of the three. PFF is totally analytic based and analytics can only be as good as the guy doing the analyzing.

One could also say that the Rams' alleged "reaches" of Bennett (30 slots), Nacua (35) and McClendon (47) are negated by Rams patience....
with the picks of Davis Allen (43 slots later than PFF mocked), Jason Taylor (36 slots later), and Desjuan Johnson (45 slots later), right?

Which just leaves McSnead looking brilliant with the aforementioned picks of:
Tre' Tomlinson
Zach Evans
Quindell Johnson
Rashad Torrence

I liked the way this 2023 unfolded so smartly (on paper) for Los Ramos as well. Hopefully this McSnead Draft is better than the past few where not much on-field help has come from 2021 or 2022 Ram Drafts....plus it's never good when we jettison Day Two picks like 3rd Rounders Bobby Evans, Darryl Henderson, Terrell Lewis and Terrell Burgess, and 2021 4th Rounder Jacob Harris....
and get nothing in return.

On the positive side, we do have our maximum of 4 (four) 2024 Comp Picks coming to us (albeit via 75% non-Ram Drafting) in the forms of:

QB Baker Mayfield (a Carolina Panther refugee waiver cut & signing)
PK Matt Gay (a Johnny Hekker bargain-basement find actually)
S Nick Scott (Bones Fassel's personal ST'er 2019 Draft project 7th Rounder)
DT A'Shawn Robinson (ex-Lion UFA signing)

In fact, outa the 8 (eight) 2019 Ram Draftees, of which 4 were Day Two picks, only 7th Rounder Nick Scott at #243 overall, led to a Rams 2024 Comp Pick.

If you ever listen to Snead on this stuff, he'll point out that no two teams have the same board and the only true measure of where a player should go is the draft itself. That's the market which determines a players value.

No pre-draft publication can do that...

So who said any pre-Draft publication is 100% accurate to the final Draft result, huh?
But we fans do use those pre-Draft publications as guidelines for our Forum discussions. Nothing wrong with that IMO.

FYI, draftek.com's BigBoard saw 100% of their 2023 NFL Draft Top 100 all get drafted.
On their next hundred, 101 thru 200, they missed on 18 guys...
so they got 182 outa their first 200 Big Board correct....which is 91%.

Not too fooking shabby.

The OP was about how PFF Mock Draft showed 13 of McSnead's 14 picks as legit 2023 Draftees from the PFF analytical viewpoint....
which, in any objective fan's view, reinforces McSnead's 2023 Draft choices, as legit.....smart, even.

Plus PFF also had Rashad Torrence and Quindell Johnson as legit draftables in their Mock, whom McSnead got as UDFAs.
See, to me......this PFF Mock Draft post/observation was meant as praising McSnead's 2023 Draft Picks.

Damn.......it's hard to float a good news story around here!

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Now if you want to talk about historically less successful Ram Draft classes than hopefully this 14-man 2023 Ram Draft class will be......

then go to overthecap.com and under DRAFT, click on:
Rookie Class Evaluation,
where they quantify yearly Draft Classes, by snaps played, for each NFL team.
One can see, in McVay's first year here, we had a helluva 2017 Draft with starters/semi-starters Everett, Kupp, JJIII, Ebukam, Josh Reynolds.....heck even Tanzel Smart. IE. when you tag plug-in starters/instant platoon guys......their immediatee on-the-field participation is value......and the 2017 McSnead Draft certainly had that as they finished 6th in the NFL for 2017 in that on-field snaps measurement.
Since 2017, however.......Los Ramos have finished poorly in that overthecap measurement area.

Now before the snipes come out and allege that I think Snead is stupid....
let me say that I am a Les DonKlostermanTradingManiacClone Snead fan.
I think he does blockbuster trades like Goff in 2016, Stafford in 2021, fleecing Texans bossman O'Brien out of a 2nd Rounder for a damaged (and overpriced) Brandin Cooks, getting Broncos to take draft picks for Von Miller, when we had no money, signing OBJ, etc etc

.....but in the stark light of day, NCAA Draft Classes for Los Ramos, since that halcyon 2017 Class.....
well they haven't been very pretty.

Okay, cue the "yeah, but we won SBLVI!!" crowd.

Elvis wrote:If you ever listen to Snead on this stuff, he'll point out that no two teams have the same board and the only true measure of where a player should go is the draft itself. That's the market which determines a players value.

No pre-draft publication can do that...

The best ever (IMO) at pre draft top 100 was Rick Gosselin (Dallas Morning News). He consistently had a 95-97% hit rate (the 3 - 5% missing was probably due to the Jets and Browns!). I don't know when or if he stopped but I haven't seen one of his predraft top 100's in some time. I remember reading he was so tight with NFL GMs that he got excellent information which he was completely trusted to have. Pretty amazing for a guy based in Texas!

CanuckRightWinger wrote:Now if you want to talk about historically less successful Ram Draft classes than hopefully this 14-man 2023 Ram Draft class will be......

then go to overthecap.com and under DRAFT, click on:
Rookie Class Evaluation,
where they quantify yearly Draft Classes, by snaps played, for each NFL team.
One can see, in McVay's first year here, we had a helluva 2017 Draft with starters/semi-starters Everett, Kupp, JJIII, Ebukam, Josh Reynolds.....heck even Tanzel Smart. IE. when you tag plug-in starters/instant platoon guys......their immediatee on-the-field participation is value......and the 2017 McSnead Draft certainly had that as they finished 6th in the NFL for 2017 in that on-field snaps measurement.
Since 2017, however.......Los Ramos have finished poorly in that overthecap measurement area.

As far as OTC's snap counts evaluation of drafts, if a team has a strong roster, the snap counts of rookies won't be so high. Conversely, if a team has a weak roster, you'd expect the snap counts of rookies to be high. It's really not as strong an evaluation of a draft class, as it is an evaluation of the existing strength of a roster pre-draft. There are also other factors such as injury. The measure of success in the NFL, be it draft class, development or coaching talent is record. So don't bet the house on OTC's valuation of draft classes. Carolina had the #4 rank (on OTC) in 2020....they went 5-11, 5-12 and 7-10....10 games under .500 from 2020-2022. Miami was #2 and went 10-6, 9-8, 9-8. 6 games over .500 in 3 years with the 2nd best draft? Snaps counts determine success? Pointing to 2017 as the pinnacle of McSnead drafts I remember some fans who didn't consider Ebukam a successful pick. Or Josh Reynolds. And clearly Smart, Rogers and Price weren't hits.

An unpopular opinion would be 2018 was one of their best drafts. 9 guys of 11 were still playing in 2022. 2 were Rams starters, 3 were starters elsewhere. Takes SFs 2018 draft. In 2022 they had 2 guys (of 9) from that draft left on the roster. McGlinchey and Warner and now McGlinchey is in Denver. OTC had them ranked as the #4 draft. A lot can happen in 4 years. The Colts had the #1 OTC draft in 2018 and have gone 41-40 since.

The Eagles and Rams from 2017 - 2022:

Philly #20, #22, #27, #18, #6 and #32
Rams #6, #31, #3, #28, #26 and #31

4 Superbowl appearances between them the during that time. An identical average of #21 over that span. So much for OTC. They ranked the 2019 Rams draft as their best (by snap count) over the last 6 years. Rapp, Henderson, Long, Evans, Gaines, Edwards, Scott and Allen. Edwards & Evans got snaps because of injuries to Noteboom, Allen and Havenstein.

Snap counts for the 2019 rookies?

Rapp 823
Edwards 690
Evans 473
Gaines 183
Long 109
Hendo 96
Scott 15
Allen 0

I think it's safe to say had Noteboom, Allen and Havenstein remained healthy, the 2019 draft class might have been ranked #32 by OTC. Edwards and Evans got 48.7% of the rookie snaps that year. PFF has the most value among fantasy players.

I think you missed the part about each player gets rated on snap counts for the Drafting Team each year, FOR FOUR CUMULATIVE YEARS (of his rookie contract).
IE. How many onfield gridiron snaps did that particular Draft Class produce for the Drafting Team?

If you look at the bottom 2 rows of Average and Median, you will see, THAT AFTER 4 YEARS ACCUMULATED, they all level out to around 9 or 10, which is the NFL average number of snaps measured of each their annual Draft Classes per team. Start in 2019, and work back into history....and you will see how the "Average" figure is always 8.890 to 10.648.

The average starts to become 9 to 10 at Draft Class 2019, because 2019 is the last Draft Class to complete its 4 Year cumulative cycle to now......which is what the OTC Rookie Class Evaluation measures...
...IE. How many on-the-field snaps did your Draft Class deliver for your team....
for the players you picked (and paid) to play on the gridiron for you? After 4 seasons you have an indication of whether it was a good Draft Class or not. Assuming one feels that NFL Teams draft NCAA players to actually play football during their 4 year rookie contracts.

Our 2018 Draft Class showed as 31st because out of the 11 guys, most never got onto the field very much! Duh!
Even your 2 starters Noteboom & Allen missed a shitload of IR time. And the Draft Class Evaluation measures VALUE to the Drafting Team......so cut Ram 2018 Drafted guys like John Franklin-Myers (Jets) or John Kelly (Browns) getting snap-counts in NY or Cleveland, don't count as those snaps are of NO VALUE to the Drafting Team, the Rams. Makes sense, no?

The rest of that 11 man 2018 Draft consisted of Reggie's Jacuzzi Lifeguard Corps....Micah Kiser, Obo, Jamil Demby, Trevon Young, Travin Howard, and Justin Lawler.

Besides Noteboom and Allen, only Sebastien Joseph-Day played any measure of meaningful total snaps for Los Ramos.....and that was out of a 2018 Draft Class of 11 guys!

Hence the 31st Ranking for Los Ramos 2018 Draft Class over the 4 cumulative seasons (2018-2021) of player snap counts as Rams.

The argument of "a Draft Class of a NFL Team with a really stacked roster will obviously show low snap-counts" only works for the first year...
.....thereafter, at some point of that 4 season Draft Class contract period, the Drafting Team is going to need some payback on their Draft treasure investments.

Conversely to the 2018 Ram Draft Year OTC ranking at 31st, the Ram Draft Class of 2019 scored high at OTC's 3rd best for the 4-seasons of cumulative snap-counts for Los Ramos, as you had so many guys playing alot of snaps:
SS Taylor Rapp
RB Hendo
OL BobbyEvans
CB David Long
LG David Edwards
S Nick Scott
The only dud was LB Dakota Allen, who got cut early.....Raidahs picked him up IIRC.
The list of the above you displayed was only their rookie season, right? As Nick Scott clearly had more than those handful of snaps you listed.

FWIW, LAFBNetwork.com ranked Los Ramos 2018 Draft as a D+...
and the 2019 Rams Draft as a B+.

Cheers from sunny Vancouver, BC.

Well now that's a completely different story. And yet they now have 0 players left on the roster from the 2019 draft.

A coupla questions.

CanuckRightWinger wrote:".....Even your 2 starters Noteboom & Allen......"

My 2 starters? Weren't they everybody's starters? Or at the very least, McVay's starters?

CanuckRightWinger wrote:"Conversely to the 2018 Ram Draft Year.......

.......SS Taylor Rapp
RB Hendo
OL BobbyEvans
CB David Long
LG David Edwards
S Nick Scott.......

.....The only dud was LB Dakota Allen, who got cut early....."

Pahleese!!! I don't remember you lovin on Bobby Evans all that much. In fact, I'm pretty sure you had more derisive words than "dud" for him. Flow guts was a popular one!! You liked him only slightly more than you liked Jamil Demby!!! Are you sure you don't want to revise that statement......Dakota Allen was the "only dud"?

Edwards got snaps because of injuries but he did eventually earn a starting spot when LG Noteboom went down in 2020 and then later when Whitworth went down and Noteboom had to man LT. Evans only got snaps because of a multitude of injuries in 2019 and 2022. Same with Nick Scott. He started when Fuller went down early in 2020 and Rapp missed the last 7 weeks. Then the following year with Fuller & Rapp both healthy, he got 23 snaps the first two weeks and topped 40 only twice during the regular season. I guess you could say (like PFF) that injuries made 2019 a better draft.

I liked Scott but it would appear Rams management believed Fuller and Rapp were the better options....when healthy. I actually liked him better than Rapp, though I wasn't as down on Rapp as most fans. But good fortune (Fuller & Rapp's bad fortune) smiled on Nick Scott and earned him a contract with Cincinnati. I'm happy for him and wish him well. Funny Rapp got a 1 year deal and Nick Scott 3 years this off season.

I realize PFF is a key source for some fans. I, like a lot of fans, just don't happen to buy half of their bullshit.

So....two things:
#1.....I said "your starters" because you had written "starters Noteboom & Allen" in your previous post.....so just referring back to that, when I added in SJD, as a 3rd starter,

in that group of 11 draftees from that ill-fated 2018 Rams Draft......where all but those three.....plus some Obo snap-count,
were "duds" as snap-accumulators.

Which brings me to thing #2.....by "duds" I meant Dakota Allen was the only "dud" from that 2019 Rams Draft, who did not accumulate alot of snaps for Los Ramos. Those other 6 guys, Rapp, Hendo, Evans, Long, Edwards & Nick Scott all accumulated lots of snaps to repay Mr. Kroenke for his $$ investment in their 4 year Rookie Contracts.

Now....as to the quality of those snap-counts.....yeah, yeah....absolutley, I agree with you in that Bobby FlowGuts Evans was no Dennis Harrah, and David DitherPants Long was no Monte Jackson.

Hey, and let me shock you with even more mutual agreement!!

I also had nothing against the Chicago DeepDish Pizza guy David Edwards who seemed to play hard when he was healthy and unconcussed, nor Darryl GreatWheelRouteRunner Henderson (just wondering where&how Hendo 'lost the bubble' late last season when McVay jettisoned him for a brief stay in Jacksonville)

......moreover, I actually always liked Taylor Rapp, as his dad is Canadian, and he grew up in the Washington State bordertown of Bellingham, WA.....which is literally a 45 minute drive from my house!!!

And who cannot love Nick DeboSamuel'sTKOGuy Scott, who Bones Fassel contacted to play Ram STs for him on his own at Ram ST Coach, after researching the former PennState Nittany Lion RB, who switched to D at Penn State because (in Scott's own words) "some guy named Saquon Barkley showed up at State College,PA to play RB "

See.....we do not disagree on everything PA, but IMO, the key difference is that I look at Snead, Demoff, & Pastoors as guys who handle my retirement IRA money, and I get pissed-off when they fook up, and I have no problem mentioning those fookups!

You, OTOH....maintain that we lowly fans cannot possibly know or have the depth of football knowledge & acumen of Demoff, Pastoors, & Snead, so we should just STFU and not criticize the Ram braintrust and just Keep The Faith......like a bunch of Jesuit monastery dwellers when the Holy Roman Church errs.

To me, Rams Football is a hobby and entertainment. For others, it's deeper & more personal, where criticism of the Rams braintrust, is taken as a personal slight, and moreover, that critic is seen as less of a Rams fan. To me, it's a Rams Fraternity....and every Frat House needs a coupla cynics and wise-crackers.

That's how I see where we part ways, PA.

Back to Snead and his recent Drafts.......check how bad the 2021 and 2022 OTC Rookie Evaluation numbers are for Ram snap-counts. Not a pretty picture!

Fact: Cooper Kupp was last ProBowler drafted by Snead....and that was back in 2017. As loyal RamsFans, let us hope (& pray!) that Les Snead & the Rams Scouting Team hit some Talent HomeRuns among these 14 Ram Draftees and 26 UDFAgent crop of 2023, eh!! GO RAMS!!!

As always, JMO.

CanuckRightWinger wrote:See.....we do not disagree on everything PA, but IMO, the key difference is that I look at Snead, Demoff, & Pastoors as guys who handle my retirement IRA money, and I get pissed-off when they fook up, and I have no problem mentioning those fookups!

You, OTOH....maintain that we lowly fans cannot possibly know or have the depth of football knowledge & acumen of Demoff, Pastoors, & Snead, so we should just STFU and not criticize the Ram braintrust and just Keep The Faith......like a bunch of Jesuit monastery dwellers when the Holy Roman Church errs.

To me, Rams Football is a hobby and entertainment. For others, it's deeper & more personal, where criticism of the Rams braintrust, is taken as a personal slight, and moreover, that critic is seen as less of a Rams fan. To me, it's a Rams Fraternity....and every Frat House needs a coupla cynics and wise-crackers.

That's how I see where we part ways, PA.

I've never said any such thing. I have criticized McVay, Stafford, Goff, Gurley, Phillips and many others. I don't have a problem with anybody criticizing. So just because I may disagree with some of your takes, that doesn't mean I believe fans should never criticize. I too, look at Rams football as a hobby. But I always understood hobbies are to be enjoyed, not treated even remotely comparable to IRA money!!! We do see things similar once in a while and very, very differently the rest of the time.

On the latter, I don't believe Snead, Pastoors or McVay owe me anything. I watch because I choose to watch. Been watching the Rams for 56 years and nobody twisted my arm to do it. I suffer with every loss but I don't blame them. It's a competition. Nobody wins em all. So when they lose, I hurt but I don't regret one second of the experience. Nor do I feel I have to blame somebody for my pain. Sometimes....in fact many times....the winners simply deserved it more. I've learned coming to terms with that makes winning so much more enjoyable. And the byproduct is I don't ever have to feel like a hypocrite.

In the case of their decisions in free agency, the draft, the active game day roster or anything else like that, nobody has any idea what went into those decisions or why. So if somebody knows the basis for those decisions and can point out a way to a better decision, then their criticisms are legit. Otherwise it's basically hindsight. And anybody can be a genius with hindsight.

I played sports my whole life......baseball, football, softball, raquetball, golf.....so I feel I understand. Hell my daughter was giving me a hard time today because I was being competitive in corn hole. "Had to win!!". When I play, whatever I play, whomever I play against, I play to win and I blame myself if I lose but at the same time I give my opponent credit. So when my favorite team loses, I figure they are beating themselves up enough and there's no need to pile on. In the Rams case, it wouldn't ease the pain of the loss. But some guys make complaining an entirely separate hobby. And you know what? If that's how they ease their pain, great. It's just not my style.

What's really funny is when I decide to criticize somebody......say Stafford for his arm punts or McVay for a playcalling brainfart.....you defend them by saying "I won't criticize the QB/head coach who won us a Superbowl" and call me "the arm punt guy". In other words, you set parameters for others proper behavior. And yet when I disagree with your take, I'm telling fans not to criticize? You can't make this shit up!!!

You know what I think?.......IIRC, your first game was in Buffalo but you chose the wrong team to follow. You deserve to be a Bills fan. 4 consecutive SB losses, bitter cold that makes Green Bay feel like South beach and Flutie Flakes. See, there, you'd always have something legit to complain about. And....you could call yourself a proud member of Bills mafia. But most importantly, you could constantly use the phrase 'it's time to circle the wagons' instead of that dumb assed statement, "now you're gonna tell me, 'yeah but we won the Superbowl so everything is good' "!