[/zn/]

I am always interested in legit numbers. And I try to be as fair as possible with evaluating Goff. I'm just not sure what he is yet. .

Everyone tries to be fair. Except to each other. So you have guys who tend to be more pessimistic and more upset after losses who think they're being fair, and then they accuse guys who tend to be more big picture oriented and not that upset after losses of not being fair WHEN in fact it's a moving target and lots of views are possible. And then whatever vice versa is.

Lots of my opinion is truth syndrome.

And also some see a deep tie-in between how McVay handles certain teams and how Goff plays against those teams. To others who don't see that tie in it's just excuses etc.

A good discussion on this will always be civil and will always leave the poster bashing out of it (IMO).

My own take? Which is as fair as anybody's AND different from some other takes.

I look at worst games in 2018 and 2020. I leave 2019 out of it because problem OLs tilt the situation--as they do with virtually any qb (with 1 or 2 exceptions and even the exception qbs are not exceptions every game). 2019 they had a problem OL. It settled down in the final 5 games but that's a lot of problem OL games.

Those 2020/2018 worst games are never just Goff, though he can be stymied and play subpar actually. They include McVay not adjusting to or not figuring out or not effectively responding to certain defenses. He can figure out those defenses between games--so the Vikings stymied them in 2017 but in 2018 he ripped them open. The Patz stymied them in the superbowl but they turned the tables in 2020. It's not all top defenses either--they beat teams this year that were top 10 in pressure percentage, top 10 in passing defense, top 10 in offensive points allowed, and in some cases top 10 in 2 or 3 of those.

Goff just does not have killer flaws that make it so he cannot be a superbowl winning qb. But he can be put in a position where he struggles and starts pressing (and that IMO is by far his biggest flaw--when he struggles, he presses to make plays which can then sometimes backfire).

Some have tried to argue that he always reacts negatively to pressure but we know for absolute certain that no, it is not ALWAYS and he has come through under pressure (Arizona pressured him 16 times this year, he did fine. 16 is a lot. It's the 4th most of any of his games since 2018.)

Anyway it gets down to how you assess the bad games. There were 3 of those this year. So some take those bad games as him being exposed, as big reveals. If someone does that they're probably saying there will be another one this year or on the horizon anyway. If you DON'T take them as big reveals, just bad games that are not bound to repeat regularly, then Goff looks different.

AND no one knows the real answer to that because it would involve knowing the future. Some believe one thing, some another. There's going to be lots of time to find out either way. Either way I personally tend to believe the bad games are over this year and the conditions that produce them not likely to appear again in 2020, PLUS he and McVay are capable of learning from those.

....

[aeneas1]

22nd ranked QB in 2019.
24th ranked QB in 2020.

I don't think it's some twisted agenda that says that isn't so good. Goff is the one who is putting up numbers that rank him at the bottom of the league, it isn't because I'm pointing them out.

excellent post, in fact it reminds of the excellent post you made in week 15 of the 2018 season, when you posted goffs' 110.5 and 101.1 qb ratings for 2017 and 2018 and argued how solid he was, how great it was to finally not have a stiff at qb... iirc you mentioned his 2017 pro bowl, and how he was a shoe-in to make the 2018 pro bowl as well, and how he might even lead the rams to that year's super bowl (you were so right!).

anyway, again, it was a solid, spot on post, especially when compared to that one forum nutjob who at the time was actually making posts questioning goff's loyalty to the rams because he grew up in northern cal liking montana and wore montana's number, ha ha, remember that dude? hell, iirc, that nutjob even questioned goff's values after goff threw out the first pitch at a dodgers game given goff grew up a giants fan, ha ha, too fuckin' much!

but as bad as the nutjob was, at least he wasn't as bad as that one forum member who didn't understand that teams that take leads into the 4th quarter don't throw much, they instead run the ball, and tried to argue that because the rams didn't throw much in the 4th it was proof positive that mcvay didn't trust goff in in the "money" quarter, ha ha, remember that dude? mama mia!

[PARAM]

Goff just does not have killer flaws that make it so he cannot be a superbowl winning qb. But he can be put in a position where he struggles and starts pressing (and that IMO is by far his biggest flaw--when he struggles, he presses to make plays which can then sometimes backfire).

Isn't that a flaw of many quality QBs? When things go bad, it's on them to turns things around? That's the nature of the position.

Anyway it gets down to how you assess the bad games. There were 3 of those this year. So some take those bad games as him being exposed, as big reveals. If someone does that they're probably saying there will be another one this year or on the horizon anyway.

And isn't that the flaw of many fans? They get it in their head that a couple of bad games means it's a pattern and that will continue. In fact most QBs have bad games from time to time. Rodgers against Tampa Bay? 16 of 35 for 160 (0-2)? Mahomes against the Raiders? 51%? So Goff has had 3 this year, 2 against the same team. He's not Rodgers or Mahomes.

The facts are this:

In 60 starts under McVay, he's had 34 games with a 95.0 or better QB rating (26 with 100 or + , including 8 this year).
He's had 26 with a rating below 95.0 but the Rams have won 11 of them (including 2 this year).

He's not Aaron Rodgers. He's not Drew Brees. But everybody knows that. He's good. More than enough to be successful.

How about Aaron Rodgers? He's been to 1 Superbowl and won it. He had a phenominal postseason. 68.4%, 1094 yds, 9 TD 2 Ints 109.8 rating. The other 8 years? 6-8 in the postseason a 97.5 Qb rating (12 pts lower), 1 and done in 3 of the 8. Still a great QB but not good enough to get back to the SB.

Drew Brees? 15 years. Phenominal career. 1 Superbowl appearance. 1 win. Awesome postseason.....72 of 102 for 732, 8 TD 0 Int 117.0. But 5-8 in the other postseasons, 1 and done in 3. Outside of the SB year his QB rating in the PS is 96.4. Excellent, 20+ less than that SB season but not good enough to get back.

My point is those two guys are two of the best to ever play QB and they only got to 1 SB. Of course they both won it but it's more than just the QB. His numbers are magnified in losses and over stated in wins. Goff has been to one SB. If he gets back to another, hopefully the Rams win it. And if they do, that'll be just as good as Rodgers and Brees (if they shouldn't make it back to and win another). While he's trying, I'll enjoy what he gives us. But Goff has much more time than those two.

[/zn/]

Isn't that a flaw of many quality QBs? When things go bad, it's on them to turns things around? That's the nature of the position.

Agreed, and as we know Goff can do that. Or he would not have any comeback wins to his credit. The question is what happens in the bad games. (And he has fewer bad games than comebacks.) I think in the bad games, he is struggling because of things beyond his own play, like the attack is just not working against this defense and the fix has to come from playcalling. What I was trying to say is that he presses when that happens. He tries to make plays when it's not working. Like, take the sack instead of making a bad play. Slide, don't try to be a running back. Etc.

And yes there are some qbs who have been able to turn things around in spite of the entire offense at the gameplan level being stymied. But I think those circumstances are rare. We have even seen Brady and Wilson fall apart in games.

So anyway as a rule no I don't think even the best qbs pull it out on their own in bad circumstances. And I mean more than just the "it's a team sport" truth/cliche. QBs don't call their own plays so if an offense is being beat at the gameplan level, adjusting and putting them in a position to win is obviously on coaching. (Which I doubt you disagree with--just getting things down in black n white).

So yeah I agree with this:

He's not Aaron Rodgers. He's not Drew Brees. But everybody knows that. He's good. More than enough to be successful.

[Gareth]

Wins and losses are not factored into quarterback rating. If they were, it seems that Goff would be rated quite a bit higher.

Things were going pretty terribly in the NFC championship game against the Saints. In the toughest possible conditions and in the biggest of situations Goff performed heroically.

He also led a fantastic comeback in Buffalo this year that didn’t hold up. And last year engineered what should have been clutch game-winning drives against our division rivals SF and Sea only to have the defense give it up.

Goff is not top tier but he is quite capable of leading this team to another Super Bowl. And with McVay learning from the first time, I’m confident that Goff and the offense would perform much better. Hope they get the chance.

[moklerman]

excellent post, in fact it reminds of the excellent post you made in week 15 of the 2018 season, when you posted goffs' 110.5 and 101.1 qb ratings for 2017 and 2018 and argued how solid he was, how great it was to finally not have a stiff at qb... iirc you mentioned his 2017 pro bowl, and how he was a shoe-in to make the 2018 pro bowl as well, and how he might even lead the rams to that year's super bowl (you were so right!).

anyway, again, it was a solid, spot on post, especially when compared to that one forum nutjob who at the time was actually making posts questioning goff's loyalty to the rams because he grew up in northern cal liking montana and wore montana's number, ha ha, remember that dude? hell, iirc, that nutjob even questioned goff's values after goff threw out the first pitch at a dodgers game given goff grew up a giants fan, ha ha, too fuckin' much!

but as bad as the nutjob was, at least he wasn't as bad as that one forum member who didn't understand that teams that take leads into the 4th quarter don't throw much, they instead run the ball, and tried to argue that because the rams didn't throw much in the 4th it was proof positive that mcvay didn't trust goff in in the "money" quarter, ha ha, remember that dude? mama mia!

And your true colors shine through. I said those things and I meant them. Just because you have a stalkers memory and try to use one's past against them, doesn't mean, you know, the title of the thread, comparatively speaking Goff is one of the worst QB's in the league right now and he was last year too.

You may attack the messenger and ignore the message all you like to try and derail and deflect away from that point but it still remains.

You are exactly why people have walked away from Twitter. Even more sad, I expected no different from you. Attack me all you want, the cold hard facts speak for themselves. Goff hasn't really compared to his peers in a long while now.

[aeneas1]

Wins and losses are not factored into quarterback rating. If they were, it seems that Goff would be rated quite a bit higher.

Things were going pretty terribly in the NFC championship game against the Saints. In the toughest possible conditions and in the biggest of situations Goff performed heroically.

He also led a fantastic comeback in Buffalo this year that didn’t hold up. And last year engineered what should have been clutch game-winning drives against our division rivals SF and Sea only to have the defense give it up.

Goff is not top tier but he is quite capable of leading this team to another Super Bowl. And with McVay learning from the first time, I’m confident that Goff and the offense would perform much better. Hope they get the chance.

it's been a pretty fun 4 years, eh?

maybe one day we'll have the next mahomes under center, until then i'm more than happy with the skinny kid throwing the ball, in fact when i think back on all of the qbs that have donned horns during my fandom, goff ranks right up near the top. and may even climb higher before it's all said and done.

btw, what happened to the media lovefest in terms of murray, thru week 7 he was on the mvp short-list i was told, now i barely hear his name mentioned, 2-4 over the last 6 has a way of doing that i suppose... and what happened to the wentz is a top tier or near qb when healthy talk? guess it's kind of hard to claim that when a guy's riding pine.

[Gareth]

Interesting point about ranking Goff in the ram quarterback hierarchy. The only one clearly higher I think is Kurt Warner. And as we all know that didn’t last very long.

[aeneas1]

And your true colors shine through. I said those things and I meant them. Just because you have a stalkers memory and try to use one's past against them, doesn't mean, you know, the title of the thread, comparatively speaking Goff is one of the worst QB's in the league right now and he was last year too.

You may attack the messenger and ignore the message all you like to try and derail and deflect away from that point but it still remains.

You are exactly why people have walked away from Twitter. Even more sad, I expected no different from you. Attack me all you want, the cold hard facts speak for themselves. Goff hasn't really compared to his peers in a long while now.

[moklerman]

Keep trying. I'm not ashamed of being a Bradford fan. I never claimed he was the best or something that he wasn't. Maybe you should learn from that?