[St. Loser Fan]

Where I live walking around without clothing is illegal. Is the lack of a vaccine breaking any laws?

Try using a logical argument.

The US Supreme Court has already ruled that government agencies (states, counties, cities etc) can mandate vaccinations.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacobson_ ... he%20state.

Justice John Marshall Harlan delivered the decision for a 7–2 majority that the Massachusetts law did not violate the Fourteenth Amendment.[2] The Court held that "in every well ordered society charged with the duty of conserving the safety of its members the rights of the individual in respect of his liberty may at times, under the pressure of great dangers, be subjected to such restraint, to be enforced by reasonable regulations, as the safety of the general public may demand" and that "[r]eal liberty for all could not exist under the operation of a principle which recognizes the right of each individual person to use his own [liberty], whether in respect of his person or his property, regardless of the injury that may be done to others."[2]

Furthermore, the Court held that mandatory vaccinations are neither arbitrary nor oppressive so long as they do not "go so far beyond what was reasonably required for the safety of the public".[2] In Massachusetts, with smallpox being "prevalent and increasing in Cambridge", the regulation in question was "necessary in order to protect the public health and secure the public safety".[2] The Court noted that Jacobson had offered proof that there were many in the medical community who believed that the smallpox vaccine would not stop the spread of the disease and, in fact, may cause other diseases of the body.[2] However, the opinions offered by Jacobson were "more formidable by their number than by their inherent value" and "[w]hat everybody knows, ... [the] opposite theory accords with the common belief and is maintained by high medical authority."[2] Therefore, it was left to the legislature, not the courts, to determine which of the "two modes was likely to be the most effective for the protection of the public against disease".[2] No one could "confidently assert that the means prescribed by the State to that end has no real or substantial relation to the protection of the public health and the public safety".[2]

Finally, the Court acknowledged that, in "extreme cases", for certain individuals "in a particular condition of ... health", the requirement of vaccination would be "cruel and inhuman[e]", in which case, courts would be empowered to interfere in order to "prevent wrong and oppression".[2] However, the statute in question was not "intended to be applied to such a case" and Jacobson "did not offer to prove that, by reason of his then condition, he was, in fact, not a fit subject of vaccination".[2]

Another much longer, non Wikipedia about the 1905 decision.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1449224/

[AvengerRam]

I agree that it would make infinitely more sense for a stadium to require vaccines than masks. As has been noted, there is no effective way to police a crowd of 10s of thousands to ensure they are wearing their masks (particularly when there is an "actively eating and drinking" exception - seems to me that, for some, that would apply to the whole game!).

I think I'd mandate vaccines for entry and masks when not sitting.

[Elvis]

People still drink and drive, drive without a seatbelt but less because of laws and enforcement. Driving is less deadly because of it but it's hardly a perfect system or perfectly safe.

People will not wear their mask, find ways to get around vaccine mandates, but less so than if there were no mandates at all...

[max]

People still drink and drive, drive without a seatbelt but less because of laws and enforcement. Driving is less deadly because of it but it's hardly a perfect system or perfectly safe.

People will not wear their mask, find ways to get around vaccine mandates, but less so than if there were no mandates at all...

Now we're comparing deaths due to drunk driving and no seatbelts to deaths due to not wearing a mask.

Geesh

[St. Loser Fan]

Now we're comparing deaths due to drunk driving and no seatbelts to deaths due to not wearing a mask.

Geesh

Seat belt usage saves around 15,000 people a year.
https://www.nhtsa.gov/risky-driving/sea ... ery%20time.

Figuring out tougher drinking and driving enforcement is more of a challenge. But the guess is 8,000 to 12,000 Americans a year.
https://www.nhtsa.gov/risky-driving/drunk-driving

We've lost 623,000 Americans due to COVID. The numbers vary, but the guess is that without mask wearing the death toll would be 700,000 to 750,000 at this point. Are you okay with the extra 75,000 to 125,000 deaths?

I hate masks. I get absolutely no joy out of wearing them: especially the hot and humid St. Louis summer. But I'll keep wearing them to protect myself and try and slow the spread so that we can all get back to normal as soon as possible. Not getting vaccinated and/or not wearing masks means this shit just last that much longer.

[Elvis]

Now we're comparing deaths due to drunk driving and no seatbelts to deaths due to not wearing a mask.

Geesh

Just pointing out that because something isn't 100% effective or 100% adhered to it doesn't mean it's futile. It can still be very effective.

[St. Loser Fan]

Keep it up with the mask/vaccine resistance and we could very well go back to no fans in the stands for football.

[max]

Seat belt usage saves around 15,000 people a year.
https://www.nhtsa.gov/risky-driving/sea ... ery%20time.

Figuring out tougher drinking and driving enforcement is more of a challenge. But the guess is 8,000 to 12,000 Americans a year.
https://www.nhtsa.gov/risky-driving/drunk-driving

We've lost 623,000 Americans due to COVID. The numbers vary, but the guess is that without mask wearing the death toll would be 700,000 to 750,000 at this point. Are you okay with the extra 75,000 to 125,000 deaths?

Another straw man argument. Gotta love it.

We have a vax now. I got fully vaccinated in March. So have many deaths are due to no masks among vaccinated people? Thats the comparison.

[max]

Just pointing out that because something isn't 100% effective or 100% adhered to it doesn't mean it's futile. It can still be very effective.

Effective for what? If you got fully vaccinated, what is the risk of not wearing a mask? Does anyone have real numbers for that?

[DirtyFacedKid]

If you got fully vaccinated, what is the risk of not wearing a mask? Does anyone have real numbers for that?

I only have two numbers and that's my Dad and his wife. Both vaccinated in March and still caught the Delta variant a couple of weeks ago. Dad's on day 10 in the hospital, has to rely on oxygen, cannot get out of bed, and has pneumonia. His o2 level was at 50% when he got there.

The vaccination was the only preventative measure either of them took. Living in Florida, there wasn't a whole lot of mask mandates going on (as you can imagine) and they both fully took advantage of that. They thought masks were stupid and only wore them when they were required to - which wasn't very often.