[Buffaloed]

Yes, exactly.

2. There IS NO great difference between a one-gap attacking 4/3 and a one-gap attacking 3/4. Honestly, it basically reduces to Quinn standing up. Donald (when he reports) stays a 3-tech and the DL operates pretty much the same as before, though with more tools to use deception because instead of 2 hands in the dirt ends you have 2 stand up edge rushers, which means the offense doesn't know which one is coming.

From what I am gathering there are differences between how Wilson and Wms use the secondary, but that kind of thing has nothing to do with the whole 3/4 v. 4/3 thing.

I think most people who believe there's a problem switching from this kind of 4/3 to this kind of 3/4 are actually thinking about an entirely different kind of defense---the old 2-gap 3/4 like Parcells used. With that kind of D, the DL is made up of entirely different kinds of guys than you would find in a 4/3. That's not true of Wade's 3/4. It's not the same kind of defense as the 2-gap 3/4. You can transform an attacking 4/3 into a Wade style 3/4 with virtually no issues.

And again this is proven in Wade's history. He has made this kind of conversion before, knows how to do it, and has had success doing it.

,.,,,

Wade's D looks very good without Donald in pre season thus far. We'll see more tonight. Bills DEs on the line have spoken about this to media this season. Hughes likes it with his hands in the dirt. And last year's 1st rounder Shaq Lawson he said he's going back to what he's good at, and admits to being surprised Bills and Rex drafted him last year. He didn't do well in Rex's D. Or maybe it was Rob's D.

And that leads me to this - aren't line backers also very different in 3-4 vs 4-3. For instance Hughes was an end, and used as an outside LB in Ryan's D as I recall. Mario Williams wasn't happy either and was cut for that reason.

[/zn/]

Wade's D looks very good without Donald in pre season thus far. We'll see more tonight. Bills DEs on the line have spoken about this to media this season. Hughes likes it with his hands in the dirt. And last year's 1st rounder Shaq Lawson he said he's going back to what he's good at, and admits to being surprised Bills and Rex drafted him last year. He didn't do well in Rex's D. Or maybe it was Rob's D.

And that leads me to this - aren't line backers also very different in 3-4 vs 4-3. For instance Hughes was an end, and used as an outside LB in Ryan's D as I recall. Mario Williams wasn't happy either and was cut for that reason.

As I understand it, there is really only one difference when it comes to that between the Wms and Philips D. Quinn stands up in the base 3/4. That means that sometimes he is asked to drop back. Or for that matter it's the same with Longacre, who is Quinn's back-up. The Philips D does include 4-man DLs in certain packages (passing downs obviously).

Saying one or 2 guys in Buffalo didn't like the difference between playing DE in a 3-point stance and OLB standing up doesn't tell me anything. Philips has had more than one defense he converted to a 3 from a 4. But there is not this long litany of complaints out there from DEs who became OLBs under Philips.

Either way, the right DE or right OLB polices the same gap. In one they do it from a 3 point stance, in another they do it from a standing up position. That's really it as far as the differences go in the front 7.

...

.

[Buffaloed]

As I understand it, there is really only one difference when it comes to that between the Wms and Philips D. Quinn stands up in the base 3/4. That means that sometimes he is asked to drop back. Or for that matter it's the same with Longacre, who is Quinn's back-up. The Philips D does include 4-man DLs in certain packages (passing downs obviously).

Saying one or 2 guys in Buffalo didn't like the difference between playing DE in a 3-point stance and OLB standing up doesn't tell me anything. Philips has had more than one defense he converted to a 3 from a 4. But there is not this long litany of complaints out there from DEs who became OLBs under Philips.

Either way, the right DE or right OLB polices the same gap. In one they do it from a 3 point stance, in another they do it from a standing up position. That's really it as far as the differences go in the front 7.

...

.

Yeah I did notice that with Wad's D in denver - a lot more guys rushing the QB. I thought at times Von Miller had his hands in the dirt though my memory is hazy.

[Legends]

I would say I hope both of these young QBs do well. We can use more good young QBs in the NFL. Carson Wentz happens to be a fine young man I for one wish him well. Except against the Rams.

[/zn/]

Goff's college offense set him way behind in terms of learning a pro system quickly. ... Air Raid or Air Raid variant qb[s] ... have a lot to learn to execute pro systems at the automatic, 2nd nature level. Goff would have been behind no matter where he went.

* he was also young

* he was a rookie qb, and more times than not rookie qbs struggle

...Goff is no longer a rookie, is a year more mature, and is much more developed in terms of playing a pro system.

....

And it has been 2 games now, and if you combine them, we have signs that in fact Goff IS developing and getting much more settled in as a pro qb.

Yes they have weapons, yes they have a very high caliber veteran offensive staff, and yes a lot of things that were not as stable last year (OL, running game) are now more stable.

BUT ALSO, I would say, Goff himself is settling in and becoming the more mature pro-style qb we were hoping for.

To me, the real question with Goff is not can he play, it's more like what's his ceiling.

When it comes to that I don't know but I don't predict he becomes a Brady/Montana level elite qb. But those are just not that common so I don't sweat it. It is fine with me because you can win with a Eli/Flacco level good qb, if you also have other pieces (like a defense).

[aeneas1]

Goff's college offense set him way behind in terms of learning a pro system quickly. ... Air Raid or Air Raid variant qb[s] ... have a lot to learn to execute pro systems at the automatic, 2nd nature level. Goff would have been behind no matter where he went.

* he was also young
* he was a rookie qb, and more times than not rookie qbs struggle

...Goff is no longer a rookie, is a year more mature, and is much more developed in terms of playing a pro system.

And it has been 2 games now, and if you combine them, we have signs that in fact Goff IS developing and getting much more settled in as a pro qb.

Yes they have weapons, yes they have a very high caliber veteran offensive staff, and yes a lot of things that were not as stable last year (OL, running game) are now more stable.

BUT ALSO, I would say, Goff himself is settling in and becoming the more mature pro-style qb we were hoping for.

i suppose that's one way of looking at it...

another would be that goff is benefiting from mcvay's scheme, an effective scheme, and thanking his lucky stars that he no longer has to play in an utterly incompetent fisher offense, an offense that for the 2012-2016 stretch ranked 1st in 3/outs, dead last in offensive scoring, dead last in 3rd down conversions, 31st in offensive yards per play, 30th in tds per pass attempts, and 29th in qb rating, an offense in which all rams qbs failed miserably... yeah, i'm gonna go with this.

[moklerman]

And it has been 2 games now, and if you combine them, we have signs that in fact Goff IS developing and getting much more settled in as a pro qb.

Yes they have weapons, yes they have a very high caliber veteran offensive staff, and yes a lot of things that were not as stable last year (OL, running game) are now more stable.

BUT ALSO, I would say, Goff himself is settling in and becoming the more mature pro-style qb we were hoping for.

To me, the real question with Goff is not can he play, it's more like what's his ceiling.

When it comes to that I don't know but I don't predict he becomes a Brady/Montana level elite qb. But those are just not that common so I don't sweat it. It is fine with me because you can win with a Eli/Flacco level good qb, if you also have other pieces (like a defense).

These last two games have shown me that if Goff had been in a good system with good coaching and better players around him from the beginning, he'd be light years from where he is now.

Without Fisher, the Rams went out and got Whitworth and Watkins. With Fisher...well, it becomes even more obvious as time goes by that he was not a part of the solution.

[dieterbrock]

These last two games have shown me that if Goff had been in a good system with good coaching and better players around him from the beginning, he'd be light years from where he is now.

Without Fisher, the Rams went out and got Whitworth and Watkins. With Fisher...well, it becomes even more obvious as time goes by that he was not a part of the solution.

Some of Fisher's more quotable moments:
"with Case Keenum, we are a playoff team"
After getting shut out game 1 and scoring a total of 9 points in 2 games, "I don't care about what the score says, our offense is good" (paraphrased that one)

[/zn/]

These last two games have shown me that if Goff had been in a good system with good coaching and better players around him from the beginning, he'd be light years from where he is now.

I don't agree with that. Goff was THAT green as a rookie and would have been no matter where he went. That was just completely obviously visible.

And I was saying that about him before the season.

I know what the mantra is. I think it's more mythical than real.

When Goff makes it and is clearly recognized by everyone as an established year to year starter, he will be the only Air Raid qb to have ever done that. That;s going back to Couch in 99.

And I like this offense btw so I am saying nothing about that either way.


,

....

[SoCalRam78]

i suppose that's one way of looking at it...

another would be that goff is benefiting from mcvay's scheme, an effective scheme, and thanking his lucky stars that he no longer has to play in an utterly incompetent fisher offense, an offense that for the 2012-2016 stretch ranked 1st in 3/outs, dead last in offensive scoring, dead last in 3rd down conversions, 31st in offensive yards per play, 30th in tds per pass attempts, and 29th in qb rating, an offense in which all rams qbs failed miserably... yeah, i'm gonna go with this.

Look at Kirk Cousins. Guy was a pedestrian backup and with McVay calling plays put up video game numbers.

Again preseason caveat, but Washington offense has struggled first two games. McVay effect?