[ramsman34]

Neither, they're both the same. I would think anybody who can get a lead, keep it or extend it, has the ability to come from behind. In my mind, if you keep the game from getting too big mentally, bringing a team from behind to win late isn't any different than a 2 minute drill at the end of the first half. JMHO.

And that was the point of my somewhat rhetorical question. I would further posit that being ahead puts the pressure and risk taking on the other team, as opposed to your own. So, having the lead is the place you want to be, IMO.

I know, Capt. Obvious.

[max]

Basically what Cosell said was McVay's system isn't working when Goff doesn't look good.
If he's not getting what he expects, it's coaching AND play calling

It’s probably safe to say when McVays system is working Goff almost always looks good and when McVays system isn’t working Goff almost always looks bad.

So yeah, Goff is the ultimate “product of the system” QB. The question becomes will Goff ever improve to the point that when McVays system isn’t working Goff doesn’t turn the ball over multiple times. That’s all I’m asking him to do in those situations. Just cut down on giving up the ball and defensive TDs.

[aeneas1]

It’s probably safe to say when McVays system is working Goff almost always looks good and when McVays system isn’t working Goff almost always looks bad.

it's also probably safe to say that when mcvay preps for lesser defenses, defenses ranked outside of the top 10, goff is almost always in store for a good day, but when mcvay preps for top 10 defenses, or defenses that stack the front and run cover 0, or saleh's defense, goff is almost always in store for a bad day.

The question becomes will Goff ever improve to the point that when McVays system isn’t working Goff doesn’t turn the ball over multiple times. That’s all I’m asking him to do in those situations. Just cut down on giving up the ball and defensive TDs.

are you under the impression that when mcvay's system doesn't work, like it often doesn't against top 10 defenses, or defenses that stack the front and run cover 0, or saleh's defense, goff almost always turns the ball over multiple times? and you think that's the prob and the reason the rams haven't had success against these defenses?

[max]

are you under the impression that when mcvay's system doesn't working, like it often doesn't against top 10 defenses, or defenses that stack the front and run cover 0, or saleh's defense, goff almost always turns the ball over multiple times? and you think that's the prob and the reason the rams haven't had success against these defenses?

Well, you’d think the evidence supports that. But that’s not what bothers me the most. What bothers me the most is not just being unsuccessful but the extreme nature of the failure. I’m like, ok, we’re not getting it on offense against this defense, but don’t totally crash and burn. I’m not asking Goff to put up 2 TDs against the Niners, just don’t give up more TDs than you make.

[/zn/]

Well, you’d think the evidence supports that. But that’s not what bothers me the most. What bothers me the most is not just being unsuccessful but the extreme nature of the failure. I’m like, ok, we’re not getting it on offense against this defense, but don’t totally crash and burn. I’m not asking Goff to put up 2 TDs against the Niners, just don’t give up more TDs than you make.

You mean like the Dec SF game in 2019? 2 TDs & 1 INT, Rams were in the game in spite of having no run game (24 of 72) and in spite of the qb being pressured 12 times. Took the lead back once in the 3rd and then tied it in the 4th. Defense lost that game on an improbable thing where they gave up 3rd and 16 twice.

[aeneas1]

Well, you’d think the evidence supports that. But that’s not what bothers me the most. What bothers me the most is not just being unsuccessful but the extreme nature of the failure. I’m like, ok, we’re not getting it on offense against this defense, but don’t totally crash and burn. I’m not asking Goff to put up 2 TDs against the Niners, just don’t give up more TDs than you make.

i don't follow? what evidence? supports what?

[max]

i don't follow? what evidence? supports what?

That when we face top defenses that can cover well and pressure Goff (like Miami and SF this year), he has more often than not turned the ball over multiple times.

I'm not sure what your position is on this. Are you saying that Goff doesn't play poorly when facing those conditions? Or are you saying every QB plays as poorly as Goff does facing those conditions?

The sanity check here is that Goff is 22nd in passer rating this year, and that doesn't even include the lost fumbles. That to me says pinning the problem on McVay's system not working doesn't hold water.

[aeneas1]

That when we face top defenses that can cover well and pressure Goff (like Miami and SF this year), he has more often than not turned the ball over multiple times.

goff has faced top 10 defenses 21 times, and has turned the ball over (pick + fumbles) 1 time or less in 15 of those games (70% of the time), 2 times or less 17 times (81%).

I'm not sure what your position is on this. Are you saying that Goff doesn't play poorly when facing those conditions? Or are you saying every QB plays as poorly as Goff does facing those conditions?

i think mcvay has struggled to come up with answers to what top defenses are doing against him, to what saleh has done against him, to what defenses that use stacked fronts, 0 and quarters have done to him.

let's take the miami game, a team that ran cover 0 ad nauseum against the rams, and 3 of the 4 games against the niners dating back to last season - outside of goff's turnovers, the rams had 43 other non-turnover drives to work with in those games, an average of 11 other non-turnover drives per game.

and what did the rams offense manage with those 43 non-turnover drives? scored just 6 tds, punted 31 times (including 14 three/outs), failed to score any points on 33 of the drives, and averaged just 13.5 points per game.

goff's turnovers certainly didn't do the rams any favors in those games, especially his multiple turnovers in two of them, but from where i'm sitting they were just a symptom of mcvay's struggles against these sort of defenses given that mcvay (and goff) had a ton of other drives to work with in those games and did absolutely nothing with them but get shut down.

The sanity check here is that Goff is 22nd in passer rating this year, and that doesn't even include the lost fumbles. That to me says pinning the problem on McVay's system not working doesn't hold water.

the sanity check for me is goff is a 2-time pro bowler who has led the rams to the super bowl, all within the last 4 years, who has struggled at times this season and last as mcvay tries to reclaim his genius cap now that more and more defenses have figured out very effective ways to counter his 11-personnel attack.

[max]

goff has faced top 10 defenses 21 times, and has turned the ball over (pick + fumbles) 1 time or less in 15 of those games (70% of the time), 2 times or less 17 times (81%).

Ok. That's interesting. Digging further into it, I wonder what Goff's numbers are on this from the time Gurley got hurt in the 2nd half of 2018. My point here is that Goff's turnover problem really became an issue when Gurley was no longer the focal point of the offense. So what do Goff's number look like from the 2nd half of 2018 until now when facing top 10 defenses that can cover well and pressure? It really takes both. I think Goff does just fine under pressure if the coverage isn't tough.

i think mcvay has struggled to come up with answers to what top defenses are doing against him, to what saleh has done against him, to what defenses that use stacked fronts, 0 and quarters have done to him.

let's take the miami game, a team that ran cover 0 ad nauseum against the rams, and 3 of the 4 games against the niners dating back to last season - outside of goff's turnovers, the rams had 43 other non-turnover drives to work with in those games, an average of 11 other non-turnover drives per game.

and what did the rams offense manage with those 43 non-turnover drives? scored just 6 tds, punted 31 times (including 14 three/outs), failed to score any points on 33 of the drives, and averaged just 13.5 points per game.

goff's turnovers certainly didn't do the rams any favors in those games, especially his multiple turnovers in two of them, but from where i'm sitting they were just a symptom of mcvay's struggles against these sort of defenses given that mcvay (and goff) had a ton of other drives to work with in those games but did absolutely nothing with them but get shut down.

I'm not sure how much of those losses are on McVay's struggles against those defenses and how much is on Goff just because he didn't score on those non-turnover drives. Just because Goff didn't turn the ball over doesn't mean its all McVay's fault we didn't score.

the sanity check for me is that goff is a 2-time pro bowler who has led the rams to the super bowl, all within the last 4 years, who has struggled at times this season and last as mcvay tires to reclaim his genius cap now that more and more defenses have figured out very effective ways to counter his 11-personnel attack.

The last time Goff was a pro bowler we had the best RB in the NFL as the centerpiece of our offense. Now the offense goes through Goff. It's a totally different dynamic.

I get it. You think the problem has more to do with McVay than Goff. I happen to think its the other way around.

[AvengerRam]

Goff started the season off like gangbusters, with a passer rating of around 108 for the first 5 weeks (4 wins and a controversial loss). Three of the defenses the Rams faced in those games currently rank in the Top 10.

So... Jared Goff CAN BE very effective.

If he can have a stretch like that over the final 5 games of the season, much of this conversation will be moot.