[moklerman]

Roethlisberger is a clear HOF QB. He had been top tier for years. So I can see why coaches still see him as such. I can also see why they weren’t as high on Wilson who had a great defense for years. That pick in the SB hurt him. My guess is that he got a lot of tier one votes last year, just not enough. Still, it’s not that big of a deal. A bigger deal is ranking Stafford over Goff. I don’t see that.

And are you implying that Sando is making this list up? Are you saying he’s lying about the 55 guys? Interesting.

It is interesting. To me, it suggests that you can't fathom a coach or executive having the integrity to honestly grade his own QB.

Maybe because you struggle with it with Goff you think everyone else should too?

[moklerman]

simple question really.

for the 2017-2018 stretch, what qbs have played better than goff?

still waiting. c'mon, i know you can do it!

Brady, Rivers, Roethlisberger, Mahomes, Luck...arguably Ryan and Brees.

There are plenty of QB's playing at a higher level than Goff and cherry picking a particular two seasons to try and make it look like Goff has been better than he was isn't going to change his 2nd tier perception.

[/zn/]

I also never said that 2nd tier was a bad thing. You're either misreading or misrepresenting what I said. But the fact of the matter is, the league perceives Goff to be a 2nd tier QB, not an elite QB.

There's plenty of that going around. Well except I disavow "misrepresenting." People misread all the time, it's normal (you just did it). It's part of conversation on the net. No one "misrepresents" someone else, that's just a paranoid thing people can get into if they think they've been misread. I avoid saying that; saying that personalizes it (by making it about the poster's imagined bad motives.)

To the real issues.

I have not only been arguing he isn't elite, I view elite as very rare anyway. So neither of us is using "elite" to describe Goff.

And a third year qb who is 2nd tier and developing? Cool. That's basically been my point all along. So when you say that, you are not disagreeing with anything I said.

I also did not say you said 2nd tier was a bad thing.

Here's what I did say. To me, as in this is just opinion talking, this view is too strong and is not backed by the article:

Goff's going to really have to do something to overcome perception around the league.

No he doesn't "REALLY have to do something". That's too dramatic for me and implies a darker view of him league wide than I see in that article.

What I see is just normal development will be fine. Your take is harsher on Goff than mine is, or at least your own words suggest he needs to dramatically do something to change perceptions. I don't think that at all. I think just normal Goff being Goff, with normal seasoning and development from experience, and he is going to be considered tier one. To me that's just a matter of time. So to me he doesn't REALLY HAVE TO DO SOMETHING. To me it's just going to all come as a natural product of him playing, getting more experience, and becoming more consistent.

[aeneas1]

mahomes was a 4th tier qb who ranked 31st among 32 qbs headed into 2018 according to sando's 2017 tier list, maybe he should have given louis riddick a call before putting that list together? hint: louis riddick nailed mahomes huge 2018 season.

speaking of sando's tier list - last year sando only included 4 qbs in the top tier bracket, this year sando has doubled that number to 8, hmmm... if sando had limited this year's top tier qbs to 4 as he did last season, luck, rivers roethlisberger and wilson would have been in the 2nd tier group along with goff, while rodgers, brady, brees and mahomes would have been the only 2019 top tier qbs, ha ha, mama mia.

[moklerman]

There's plenty of that going around. Well except I disavow "misrepresenting." People misread all the time, it's normal (you just did it). It's part of conversation on the net. No one "misrepresents" someone else, that's just a paranoid thing people can get into if they think they've been misread. I avoid saying that; saying that personalizes it (by making it about the poster's imagined bad motives.)

You wrote: First off tier 2 is not bad at this stage of his development (ie. 3rd year qb).

I didn't misread what you wrote. Seems odd that you were not implying that was something I had suggested considering the context of the rest of the post.

And people do misrepresent what someone has said ALL the time. Whether or not that is what you did is immaterial because it was just an option. To presume that no one has ulterior motives is incredibly naive.

But you are doing an awful lot of interpreting of what is being said instead of just reading what is said. It seems very much like you are guilty of what you claim to be against.

What Goff has to do is neither dark nor light and that is you just projecting your own views onto the situation. But he is firmly considered a 2nd tier guy and one that benefits from McVay's offense. Seems like a bit of a task for him to overcome that criticism if he remains in that offense, don't you think?

[moklerman]

mahomes was a 4th tier qb who ranked 31st among 32 qbs headed into 2018 according to sando's 2017 tier list, maybe he should have given louis riddick a call before putting that list together? hint: louis riddick nailed mahomes huge 2018 season.

speaking of sando's tier list - last year sando only included 4 qbs in the top tier bracket, this year sando has doubled that number to 8, hmmm... if sando had limited this year's top tier qbs to 4 as he did last season, luck, rivers roethlisberger and wilson would have been in the 2nd tier group along with goff, while rodgers, brady, brees and mahomes would have been the only 2019 top tier qbs, ha ha, mama mia.

Isn't it just based on the voting of those polled? I don't think Sando is setting limits to the number of QB's in each tier. I'm very curious to see just how much time and effort you put into trying to discredit this article though.

1/3 of the executives and coaches had Goff 3rd tier...ouch.

[max]

Isn't it just based on the voting of those polled? I don't think Sando is setting limits to the number of QB's in each tier. I'm very curious to see just how much time and effort you put into trying to discredit this article though.

1/3 of the executives and coaches had Goff 3rd tier...ouch.

Right on, Sando did the polling. He didn’t determine how many QBs are tier 1. Accusing Sando of that is like accusing a thermometer of making it hot outside when it registers 90 degrees.

Still, it is interesting to read a1's grasping attempts.

And 2/3 of the execs and coaches have Goff at least tier 2 (and climbing). That’s pretty impressive for a 24 year old QB, no matter how you slice it. Reasonable and knowledgeable QB evaluators see Goff’s strengths and weaknesses. They know what he needs to improve on to get to tier 1. The ability is there, he just needs to improve his reads and performance under duress. I think that will come in the next year or two.

[moklerman]

Right on, Sando did the polling. He didn’t determine how many QBs are tier 1. Accusing Sando of that is like accusing a thermometer of making it hot outside when it registers 90 degrees.

Still, it is interesting to read a1's grasping attempts.

And 2/3 of the execs and coaches have Goff at least tier 2 (and climbing). That’s pretty impressive for a 24 year old QB, no matter how you slice it. Reasonable and knowledgeable QB evaluators see Goff’s strengths and weaknesses. They know what he needs to improve on to get to tier 1. The ability is there, he just needs to improve his reads and performance under duress. I think that will come in the next year or two.

Yes, and when some of us or some writers have said things along those lines, we've been blasted for being idiots and too dumb to understand statistics.

All of this recent Goff talk started because someone had the nerve to write an article that Goff was 2nd tier with room to grow into an elite QB and some of us agreed.

[aeneas1]

Brady, Rivers, Roethlisberger, Mahomes, Luck...arguably Ryan and Brees.

There are plenty of QB's playing at a higher level than Goff and cherry picking a particular two seasons to try and make it look like Goff has been better than he was isn't going to change his 2nd tier perception.

so in you estimation 7 guys have played better than goff over the past two season, what a suprise... thank god bradford's unemployed or it would no doubt be 8!

you're up max!

[max]

so in you estimation 7 guys have played better than goff over the past two season, what a suprise... thank god bradford's unemployed or it would no doubt be 8!

you're up max!

Correction. Not only in his estimation, but in just about every reasonable and knowledgeable QB evaluator in existence.

You are in a very small minority, my friend.

Actually, I challenge you to find one notable and respected football person who ranks Goff where you do.

You think Louis Riddick does? Haha!