[/zn/]

I understand why you'd do that, but it doesn't change how remarkably consistent his inconsistency has been, as well as his preponderance for losing the football.
And.. as far as "good"? He's 18th in rating this year... when he's had all his weapons and good oline play.
I appreciate looking to other reasons for success/failure... and, truth is, all QBs have to deal with that.
Independent of all that... I don't think Jared Goff is a very good QB on the NFL level. He has moments.. but really hasn't had a "wow" game since 2018. He's thrown for 3tds in a game three times in the last 27 games.. and hasn't thrown more in a game once in that time span.
But he has turned the ball over. A lot. Catastrophically.
If we reduce criticism of Goff for bad plays because of playcalling... what do we do with obvious QB errors when plays are designed well? Like missing a relatively easy throw to Henderson for a TD on Sunday.
15 turnovers puts him second behind Wentz, unless I'm mistaken. That's just plain bad and unsustainable. Having a killer defense has prevented this year from looking like a total crater for Goff, imo.

He had more bad games in 2019 than in either 2018 or 2020. That is a natural outcome of their OL deteriorating. So I don't see the consistent line of inconsistency you do--it's not an unbroken line because qbs (with very rare exceptions) do not play well under those conditions.

And I am not subbing criticism of McV's in-game instincts for criticism of Goff. I think of it more as a mutually reinforcing double whammy. A qb who can struggle during a game (or did 3 out of 11 starts) and a coach who is kind of tone deaf about calming the situation down and getting the offense back in sync.

Make Goff the SF qb under Shanahan--what is the likelihood they lose that game? Or just switch coaches. If Shanahan has the Rams, are they more or less likely to score in the final minutes to take the game? If McV has SF in the same situation, are they more or less likely to take the game in the final minutes?

In terms of 2020, when was the last time, and I mean across the years, there was a good Rams discussion like this where people said they want to dump the qb when the team is not only winning but contending for the division? ( I am not saying you are saying that.) 3 bad games out of 11 tells people to forget the winning record, the qb is beyond not viable? Heck even the Warner debates--regardless what anyone thinks of those or where they stood in them--started because 2002 was a losing season where the team went 0-6 with Kurt starting.

I would honestly be surprised if the next few weeks didn't temper this whole issue a bit and make it seem less urgent.

....

[aeneas1]

We need to be real here... he's below average. He's the 23rd rated QB in the NFL.
He was 22nd last year.
This is over the last 27 games.. it's not a blip.

dating back to last season, the last 27 games, goff ranks 10th in win % among the 26 qbs that have started at least 20 games, ahead of cousins, watson, prescott, rivers, and ryan to name a few... in fact wilson is just 3 games better than goff for the stretch in terms of wins.

that said, i think it's pretty obvious that goff's struggling, but i think it's a stretch to make him out to be a bottom third of the league in talent.

in other news, how do you feel about qb turnovers?

[/zn/]

The answer to the hypothetical is... I don't know! No one does. We don't know what decisions Mullens made that Goff would/wouldn't have and we don't know whether Goff would've had more or less turnovers. We do know Mullens fumbles the ball at a much lower rate than Goff.

With me, the frustration is, that I don't see being able to count on Goff in the playoffs. He's had three good quarters in the playoffs.. that's pretty much it. He really hasn't been "good" in the playoffs, overall.
It's also that he's not growing.. not making better decisions... and is making the same *tragic* mistakes when it comes to turnovers.
I remember bad QB play... but now I'm looking at bad QB play that can successfully masquerade as good QB play for periods of time.

I see it as Shanahan gave Mullens the plays when it counted and that's after he (KS) had to adjust back against a defense that is great in 2nd half adjustments (Mullens had a bad game too--INT, 77.3 qb rating ).

I see McV as failing to do that. That's a week after they won the game against Tampa, when they could not run the ball and everything was passing, so we have seen the qb (and coach) pull it off.

It was clutch KS v. McV and KS not only pulled it off, it was obvious from watching that KS owned the situation and McV was less effective.

I thought of my scenario more as rhetorical questions. For whatever reasons, KS has the advantage in games against McV. I think McV's in-game calls can be far more tone deaf that Shanahan's are.

....

[moklerman]

Is 10th good, in your mind? With the Rams roster and coaching? Because this team had at least three more wins in them already this year with better QB play, imo. And.. I'm not talking markedly better... I'm talking "don't give the other team the game" bad.

I'm not a big fan of turnovers, it seems.

And win% still isn't a QB stat. Is anyone counting NE's win as a Cam Newton win? Or was Kordell Stewart better than Rich Gannon, Brett Favre, Tom Brady, etc.? Is Baker Mayfield better than Goff?

There are tons of QB specific stats to measure how a QB is playing. Dismissing all of that and just looking at the W/L record is disingenuous IMO.

But, to your earlier point, it's been 36 games of "blip" since the KC game. In those 36 games, Goff has an 85.1 rating. Which would be good for about 25th out of 32 starters each of the last couple of years. Bottom quarter of the league statistically for 2 1/4 year's worth of games.

[aeneas1]

Is 10th good, in your mind? With the Rams roster and coaching? Because this team had at least three more wins in them already this year with better QB play, imo. And.. I'm not talking markedly better... I'm talking "don't give the team the other game" bad.

I'm not a big fan of turnovers, it seems.

is a 10th ranking in win % good? i think it's a great for a team that fields a stiff at qb, a bottom third talent who can't hold onto the ball! postseason good!

so you think the rams would be "at least" 10-1 this season if they had a decent qb under center? you believe a decent qb wouldn't have left 3 of the rams 4 losses on the field?

if so then you clearly have a higher opinion of the rams 2019-2020 offensive talent and mcvay's x's and o's during the 2019-2020 stretch than i do... i think the rams have talent on offense, but i haven't been sold on mcvay's re-shaping of the rams 2020 offensive scheme, short quick throws, a horizontal passing game, 1-2 read concepts, in effort to protect the oline and goff... worked well for the most part against the bucs, but shanny has shut it down in 3 of the last 4 games, as have some other teams, by taking away the 0-10 yard area of the field, the blos to 10 yard throw, and forcing the rams to either run the ball or push the ball downfield, believing the pass pass rush would win the day by forcing longer routes.

but, yeah, goff has missed some throws, the henderson wheel was painful, but i haven't seen a game where guys are schemed open on almost every play and goff is just unable to hit them, as wentz has done all season, hell goff ranked 7th in lowest "bad throw" rate headed into the niners game, a stat that jives with i've seen this season.

[AvengerRam]

Here’s an idea...

Let’s hear from the anti-Goff brigade after his next 100+ passer rating game/win.

Or do these opinions only formulate and demand airing after a loss?

Carrion...er... I mean carry on!

[/zn/]

I'm sorry.. McVay schemed open Henderson for an easy 7. His call on 2nd and 5 to Woods was routine.
Execution can make play calling look better or worse... and Goff's made it look decidedly worse lately.

Yeah one play though. EDIT: I re-watched it and as a result came back here and took out the stuff I said about that play which was all just my poor memory.

My main point is that KS kept SF in it against a tough defense and it pulled it off with more than just one play.

...

[aeneas1]

The Rams have one of the top defenses in the league and an offense that's been intact for several years.. good protection..

intact for several years? the super bowl was a season and a half ago and 5 offensive starters from that game are no longer wearing horns, and one of the guys (blythe) is playing a different position, moreover the rams no longer have a wideout (cooks/watkins) that can take the top off a d, or better put, mcvay doesn't seem interested in using vj or reynolds in that roll.... good protection? the only reason the rams appear to have good pass pro is because of mcvay's 2020 scheme, a diet of short throws designed to get the ball out of 16's hand quickly, goff ranks near the bottom in average depth of pass this season, well below past averages under mcvay, and it's by design.

what we're seeing in 2020, and what we saw a lot of in 2019, is a significantly different offensive scheme than 2017-2018, it's almost completely a one-read passing offense, goff does little more than look one way to move the safeties and then turns and throws quickly to the predetermined target... when it works, when the scheme works and frees the intended target, beautiful things can happen, when that target is covered, shit can break down very quickly, passes are forced, thrown away, picked, etc... rarely is there a plan-b, and when there is it's often a hit/miss shit-show, if there's even time in the pocket to give plan-b a stab, which there often isn't.

this is the rams 2020 passing game in a nutshell, all from the first half of the niners game:

when the scheme works it's beautiful

when it doesn't, not so much

here's the first half pick to higbee (don't have the stomach to watch the 2nd half a22), it's a rams bread and butter play that they've run a dozen times, and it hits far more often than it misses, and when it hits it's usually a pretty impressive sight as goff drops a dime into the soft spot of the zone, just above the fingertips of the corner, and just in front of the safety... but on this play higbee was mugged throughout his route, couldn't get to the spot, and goff had no business trying to force it, should have just thrown it away.

And.. yes.. I think they'd be 10-1.

yeah, hard for me to see that, too many non-turnover drives in the losses that the rams could do absolutely nothing with.

Which guy with a higher QB rating do you think wouldn't have them 10-1? Why?

because i don't think a lot of qbs can do what goff's been asked to do in this particular scheme, hell i'm not even sure that they would like it or want to do it, for example roethlisberger would get his ass kicked imo, so would ryan and others... then again i can't see mcvay running the same scheme with a mobile guy, a mahomes, wilson, murray, etc. guys that can run and make off-schedule plays, it would be a different offense entirely imo.

Goff is *good* when everything is working perfectly.

when he outplayed brees in the championship game i remember thinking to myself, thank god everything is perfect for him! especially when he dropped that deep dime over cooks' shoulder!

McVay's the coach.. there are things he can do better.
He's not the reason Goff turns the ball over repeatedly. That's on Goff and it's a really big problem.

mcvvay and goff have to get on the same page about what to do with the ball when the predetermined target isn't available, just throw it into the turf seems like the only safe thing to do... and while they're at it they should probably talk about shelving inside screens in traffic, for good.

anyway, goff clearly has to take better care of the ball, and learn to slide on when he takes off with it.

[Hacksaw]

Good post A-1.
Scheme. I was watching the NO at LA tilt from 2017 last night for fun. What became immediately noticeable were the different formations and Goffs approach. He'd line up the offense and walked around with swagger hollering signals out to the ends ala Peyton Manning. Much different than now. They lined up in different formations than they do now. 2 TE's, often 1 off the LOS. More bunch formations, occasionally 2 backs (with TA). Many more inside slants and skinny post plays, crossing quick hitters and way more throws to RB Gurley who'd release and hook up the middle. Goff was nails with his touch over the top to Watkins and rookie Kupp (Woods wasn't dresses with a shoukder). More deep balls. It seemed like a completely different offense. Compared to today's offense which appears to line up the same every play the run different plays from the same formation.

I remember one time Nantz and Romo were discussing the coaching and at that point they were heaping praise on McV (which most still do) and OC? Matt LeFluer. I can't help wondering if LaFluer was somewhat underrated in his impact in our offense. I'm not implying he was the reason the offense seemed more diverse but its possible he added some extra wrinkles.
The Oline was solid but Goff was still under pressure and had his fair share if hits in the backfield and still took some sacks. But he made more plays regardless.
Overall they seemed more diverse and crisp back then. It was only one game but they made those few plays that seem fewer and further between these days.

[max]

A fair question here is do the Rams win the game if Goff doesn't turn the ball over 3 times. I think the answer is yes.

The follow up question is are the turnovers a repeated problem with Goff. I think the answer is also yes.

In all the interviews I heard with McVay it sounds like he puts the turnover issue on the shoulders of Goff. McVay has made it clear that Goff is the one responsible for cause the turnovers and subsequently the losses.

All the statements about other QBs or other Rams players having issues are diversions to Goff being the single biggest reason for the turnovers. And they will cause losses.