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 by moklerman
5 years 7 months ago
 Total posts:   7680  
 Joined:  Apr 17 2015
United States of America   Bakersfield, CA
Hall of Fame

KNUCKLEHEAD wrote:I didn't say they shouldn't be considered Fearsome Foursome as well. You've presented a couple good examples that would be considered as good, or even better by some, but they'll never be the originals. They'll never have the same notoriety, and by extension the same worth as a group. It's just the way it is. Sammy Hagar was my favorite... he's still not Diamond Dave. It doesn't seem to matter whether we're talking about people, places, or things. We celebrate the firsts, and the originals... Almost always.
I'm just not comfortable even using the Queen analogy or any with such a dominant front man one to be honest. The FF didn't have 1 particular guy who essentially was the band for many/most fans. That's why I think the KISS comparison is most apt.

I still don't know for sure what's being argued. Even those in this thread that are arguing for the original 4 all seem to concede that the FF lasted and were still identified as such for years after Grier.

No one is suggesting the original four weren't the most popular so I fail to understand why there is such opposition to the groups from '67+. But there is an apparent effort to marginalize or dismiss the subsequent groups.

 by /zn/
5 years 7 months ago
 Total posts:   6758  
 Joined:  Jun 28 2015
United States of America   Maine
Hall of Fame

Gareth wrote:I challenge you to find FF gear that doesn't only include Jones, Olsen, Grier and Lundy. There is a reason why you can find tons of stuff out there with those four and nothing that includes anyone else.


Well as this discussion evolved a few things came out. The posters who watched them then said that they called at least the 67 unit the FF and so did everyone else then. They called the 67 DL that, the 67 DL was known back then as that. Some are more hardcore about that experience, saying it's revisionary history to say the FF was just the original 4, and some are fine with others making it the original 4 but they themselves go by what they saw and heard at the time. Either way, like Elvis says, I respect the fact that guys who watched them back then say they thought of the units that came after Grier as still being the FF.

And then some people said, no it's just the original 4. That;s based on a lot of things. You base that on memorabilia and gear etc. I don't know much about those things (memorabilia, gear in general). I just figure what you say about that is probably mostly true, though I did search for a sec and found an exception here and there:

Image

But an exception like that is far less common and cheaper, so I'll just say you're probably just mostly right about that.

That just leaves us with 2 different things.

The history, which includes what was said at the time and then some people remembering it now. (And it really was pretty much universal at the time.)

Then there's different worlds (including memorabilia & gear) where the original 4 count far more and the altered lines starting in 67 don't count as much.

So a lot of people in the thread say, I think of the FF as existing after Grier, but if others think it's only the original 4 that's fine. I personally count the fans's own experience of that era a lot, but, the way the discussion evolved, many of those people don't seem to want to impose that on others. And that's persuasive to me.

To speak just for my side of it, to me it counts for a lot that that was people's experience, and to me it counts for a lot that the FF's best year is 67.

That's not an argument against others seeing it differently though. It's just my own vote in an informal poll.

That's what it all evolved to IMO. That people are agreeing that there's just nothing wrong with different votes on this.

..

 by rams74
5 years 7 months ago
 Total posts:   1460  
 Joined:  Nov 19 2015
Italy   Glendale, Arizona
Pro Bowl

I'll just add one more comment to this thread. A number of posters have used analogies to bands, whose members often change over time. To me, it's an imperfect analogy, because it's the musicians themselves who call themselves by the name of the band. The Eagles continued to be called The Eagles after Joe Walsh replaced Bernie Leadon because the band members continued to call themselves The Eagles. In fact, they're still The Eagles today, even with Glenn Frey gone.

But it wasn't Merlin, Deacon, Lamar, and Rosey who called themselves the Fearsome Foursome, it was the media. Same with the GSOT. So when do those media-invented nicknames go away? Hard to say in the moment. We didn't know the GSOT was over when Kurt Warner hurt his thumb, but looking back, that was kinda it. When Deacon was traded, he didn't take the name Fearsome Foursome with him. It just kind of went away.

 by aeneas1
5 years 7 months ago
 Total posts:   16894  
 Joined:  Sep 13 2015
United States of America   Norcal
Hall of Fame

seems that grier may have brought the moniker with him from new york.... grier played for the ny giants for eight years before joining the rams, a stretch in which the giants went to 5 championship games - during this time he was part of a defensive line that included grier, robustelli, katcavage, and modzelewski which the ny post labeled the fearsome foursome.

 by moklerman
5 years 7 months ago
 Total posts:   7680  
 Joined:  Apr 17 2015
United States of America   Bakersfield, CA
Hall of Fame

aeneas1 wrote:seems that grier may have brought the moniker with him from new york.... grier played for the ny giants for eight years before joining the rams, a stretch in which the giants went to 5 championship games - during this time he was part of a defensive line that included grier, robustelli, katcavage, and modzelewski which the ny post name labeled the fearsome foursome.
That seems like a much more interesting discussion/argument to have. Which Fearsome Foursome deserves the title the most? Giants, Rams, Chargers...who else had one?

 by /zn/
5 years 7 months ago
 Total posts:   6758  
 Joined:  Jun 28 2015
United States of America   Maine
Hall of Fame

moklerman wrote:That seems like a much more interesting discussion/argument to have. Which Fearsome Foursome deserves the title the most? Giants, Rams, Chargers...who else had one?


The NY line was called the FF in 1957. It was also applied to SD in 1961. Then used for the Detroit DL in 1962 (and that DL included Roger Brown). It's first applied to the Rams original 4 in 1963. But then by 67 they were THE fearsome foursome. I think that was aided by the fact that guys like Olsen and Jones had such huge personalities (though obviously very opposite.)

 by moklerman
5 years 7 months ago
 Total posts:   7680  
 Joined:  Apr 17 2015
United States of America   Bakersfield, CA
Hall of Fame

/zn/ wrote:The NY line was called the FF in 1957. It was also applied to SD in 1961. Then used for the Detroit DL in 1962 (and that DL included Roger Brown). It's first applied to the Rams original 4 in 1963. But then by 67 they were THE fearsome foursome. I think that was aided by the fact that guys like Olsen and Jones had such huge personalities (though obviously very opposite.)
I've always considered myself a little more knowledgeable about NFL history than the average joe or civilian but I admit, I never knew anyone else, much less 3 other groups, ever had the Fearsome Foursome nickname.

Did the Rams deserve it more because of what they did on the field or did it stick with them because they had it last and had 3 or 4 guys that were celebrities?

 by /zn/
5 years 7 months ago
 Total posts:   6758  
 Joined:  Jun 28 2015
United States of America   Maine
Hall of Fame

moklerman wrote:Did the Rams deserve it more because of what they did on the field or did it stick with them because they had it last and had 3 or 4 guys that were celebrities?


IMO? It was both. And not just celebrities though I know what you mean by that. They were also outsized personalities. Olsen was highly thought of as a player and person everywhere, including among opponents. He wasn't just A gentleman giant, he was THE gentleman giant. In terms of the big personality, Jones is obvious.

Here's an interesting thing. Green Bay guard Jerry Kramer on playing the FF in 1967. The Packers won the playoff game discussed here but it is still worth a read.

https://greenbaybobfox.wordpress.com/20 ... eles-rams/
from Jerry Kramer Talks About the 1967 Playoff Game Versus the Los Angeles Rams

...

The first time the teams met was late in the season, when the Packers had already clinched the NFL Central division with a 9-2-1 mark heading into the game. They would be traveling to the Los Angeles Memorial Coliseum to take on the 9-1-2 Rams.

The Packers really had nothing to play for except pride. The Rams meanwhile, were in a heated race with the Baltimore Colts to see who would win the Coastal division. Also, the NFL did not have a wild card format at the time, so the Rams had to win the division to advance to the playoffs.

Lombardi gave the team a quick pep talk on the sideline before the game.

“Thousands of people are here in the stands,” Lombardi told the team. “There are millions of people on television and everyone looking. All this speculation to see what kind of a game the Green Bay Packers are going to play today.

“Right? I want you to be proud of your profession. It’s a great profession. You be proud of this game. You can do a great deal for football today. A great deal for all the players in the league and everything else. Now go out there and play this ball game like I know you can play it!”

This past Friday, the NFL Network had a three-hour special as Super Bowl I was replayed in it’s entirety for the first time since that epic event 49 years ago.

In that special, it was presented that the speech that Lombardi gave his team in the 1967 regular season versus the Rams, was the one he gave before Super Bowl I, which also occurred at the Memorial Coliseum in Los Angeles.

I knew that wasn’t the case and I posted a comment about it on Facebook. During a conversation I had with Kramer on Tuesday, I mentioned that to him.

“I saw that,” Kramer said speaking of my comment on Facebook. “I said, ‘Bob knows his sh*t. He’s doing it again. He’s got it right.’

The Packers played a great game on that Saturday afternoon in Los Angeles on December 9, 1967.

It was a hard fought contest, which saw both teams go back and forth taking the lead. The Rams had taken a 17-10 lead in the third period when they kicked off to Travis Williams of the Packers.

Williams had already become a sensation in the NFL in returning kickoffs that season, as he had returned three kicks for touchdowns before this game against the Rams.

No. 23 took the kickoff four yards deep in the end zone and returned the kick for yet another touchdown which tied the game at 17 all.

The Rams took the lead again 20-17 in the fourth quarter on a 16-yard field goal by Bruce Gossett, before the Packers scored on a four-yard touchdown run by fullback Chuck Mercein to give the Packers a 24-20 lead.

The Packers had that lead until the very last minute when Donny Anderson had his punt blocked by Tony Guillory of the Rams. Quarterback Roman Gabriel and his offense now had the ball on the five-yard line of the Packers with just seconds to go in the game.

Gabriel then threw a touchdown pass to Bernie Casey and the Rams won 27-24, as the Packers lost in heartbreaking fashion.

In Instant Replay, this is what Kramer wrote regarding the outcome of the game:

I was ready to fall down when the game ended. I contained Merlin pretty well, but I was beat from head to toe. I played about as hard as I ever played in my life, and I took an incredible physical pounding in the middle of the line. So did everyone else; everybody gave 100 percent. Coach Lombardi told me I played a great game, but I was down, blue, disappointed, dejected, everything. I never came so close to tears on a football field.

Fortunately for the Packers, they had one more opportunity to play the Rams. This time it would be in the Western Conference Championship Game at Milwaukee County Stadium on December 23, just two weeks after that painful loss to the Rams.

Kramer told me that he knew the Rams would be a very tough test.

“They [the Rams] were a hell of a football team,” Kramer said. “The Fearsome Foursome was very real. There wasn’t any weakness there. They also had a good linebacking corp and good defensive backs. They had a hell of a football team.”

The game didn’t start out well for the Packers as they had a couple of turnovers in the first quarter. The last turnover led to a score by the Rams, as Gabriel hit Casey on a 29-yard touchdown pass and a 7-0 lead.

But the Packers weren’t phased. The team was definitely ready to play, as Lombardi had given the team another pre-game pep talk in the locker room.

“We really got fired up in the locker room when Coach Lombardi gave us his Run to Win speech,” Kramer said. “That got us pretty high. The ring I wear, from Super Bowl II, has Run to Win on the side of it.

“He gave us this wonderful speech of St. Paul’s epistle, about when all the runners are running the race, only one can win, and we run, not just to be in the race, but we run to win. That got us pumped up pretty good.”

The Packers basically took control of the game emphatically in the second quarter. Kramer talked about one of the strategies that the Packers employed in the game.

“One of the best things we did for the ball game was to put Marv Fleming next to Forrest [Gregg] to double Deacon [Jones],” Kramer said. “We really spent some time on trying to neutralize him and keep him a way from his favorite target [the quarterback].

“So that worked really well. Of course Travis [Williams] was the wild card in that game. I remember blocking on Merlin [Olsen] and he was starting to slip away to the outside in pursuit and I look outside and Travis was about even with us, but near the sideline running towards the end zone. And I knew that this play was over. He’s gone.”

Gone he was, as Williams galloped 46 yards for a touchdown to tie the game.

The Packers added another touchdown in the second quarter, as Bart Starr threw a 17-yard touchdown pass to Carroll Dale for a 14-7 lead going into halftime.

The Packers were never threatened after that. Williams ended up with 88 yards rushing and two scores, while Dale caught six passes for 109 yards and a score.

The Packers had 20 first downs to the Rams 12 in the game. Starr was only sacked once, while Gabriel was sacked five times, including 3.5 sacks by Henry Jordan.

The result was a very satisfying 28-7 victory over the Rams. That win set up the game eight days later, when the Packers played the Cowboys in the Ice Bowl game, when the Packers won their third straight NFL title.

This is what Kramer wrote regarding that great win against the Rams in Instant Replay:

I was misty-eyed myself I felt so good. I felt so proud, proud of myself and proud of my teammates and proud of my coaches. I felt like I was part of something special. I guess it’s the way a group of scientists feel when they make a big breakthrough, though, of course, we aren’t that important. It’s a feeling of being together, completely together, a singleness of purpose, accomplishing something that is very difficult to accomplish, accomplishing something that a lot of people thought you couldn’t accomplish. It sent a beautiful shiver up my back.

One of the reasons Kramer was busting with pride was due to the fact that he had competed against arguably the best defensive tackle in the history of the NFL, Merlin Olsen.

Kramer talked to me about the many times he competed against the great No. 74 of the Rams.

“I knew that Merlin was never going to let up on the field,” Kramer said. “He was never going to quit. He wasn’t going to hold you. He wasn’t going to play dirty. But he wasn’t going to take a play off either. He was coming.

“You had to gamble a little bit with Merlin. I liked to pop him every once in awhile. Like if it’s a pass play, I might come off the line of scrimmage and just whack him real quick like it’s a running play. Then I would almost bounce back into my position as a pass-blocker.

“That gave me an extra second for him to figure out that it really was a pass play. I remember one time he was starting to loop around the center towards Fuzzy [Thurston}, and I came up and popped him real quick with my helmet. And he went down to one knee and then bounced back up into a running position.

“He was a load. He was strong. He was motivated. He was smart. And he may have been the best I ever played against.”

Olsen had the honors to prove it. He was named to 14 Pro Bowls and was named first team All-Pro nine times.

The respect and admiration that Kramer had for Olsen, was equally shared by No. 74 towards No. 64.

In fact, Olsen sent off this letter of endorsement for Kramer regarding induction into the Pro Football Hall of Fame:

“There is no question in my mind that Jerry Kramer has Hall of Fame credentials. Respect is given grudgingly in the trenches of the NFL and Jerry has earned my respect as we battled eye to eye in the pits on so many long afternoons.

Jerry Kramer belongs in the Hall of Fame and I hope you will put this process in motion by including his name on the ballot for this coming year.”

That might be the strongest endorsement Kramer has ever received regarding his rightful place in Canton, which has still yet to occur, even with Kramer being a finalist 10 times.

...

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108 posts Mar 29 2024