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 by PARAM
5 years 10 months ago
 Total posts:   12181  
 Joined:  Jul 15 2015
Barbados   Just far enough North of Philadelphia
Hall of Fame

This is comical.

Truth is Fisher had some talented guys on the roster but it wasn't the roster that hurt Fisher as much as it was his antiquated approach to professional football. Nice guy, bad coach. Well past his prime.

Much like his claim to fame as an NFL player was being on the Monsters of the Midway (regardless of how little his contribution happened to be), his claim to fame as an NFL head coach is how it took a Music City Miracle, squeaking by the Colts with 13 first downs and drawing the over rated Jacksonville Jaguars....who the Titans beat 3 times that season.....to end up 1 yard short of a tie in the Superbowl. His coaching career mirrors his playing career. Much ado about nothing.

 by Elvis
5 years 10 months ago
 Total posts:   38376  
 Joined:  Mar 28 2015
United States of America   Los Angeles
Administrator

/zn/ wrote:Another example, by the time he started winning in his 3rd year, Carroll in Seattle had 3 starters who were on the team before he got there. And one was the punter. There was not a single one on offense...no one.


Carroll won the division and beat the Saints in the playoffs in his first year.

/zn/ wrote:Heck in 2014, his 3rd year, Fisher had 9 players total on the roster who were there before 2012.


Fisher's winningest year with the Rams was his first.

 by dieterbrock
5 years 10 months ago
 Total posts:   11512  
 Joined:  Mar 31 2015
United States of America   New Jersey
Hall of Fame

In year 1 they replaced:
40% of the starting Oline
50% of the starting tight ends
100% of the starting WR
If that’s not an overhaul I don’t know what is

 by /zn/
5 years 10 months ago
 Total posts:   6758  
 Joined:  Jun 28 2015
United States of America   Maine
Hall of Fame

Elvis wrote:Carroll won the division and beat the Saints in the playoffs in his first year.



Fisher's winningest year with the Rams was his first.


Thanks for off topic minutia. On Seattle, I thought it was clear I meant a winning season. They were 7-9 in 2010. That's not a winning season and I meant a winning season. It's a fluke that a 7-9 team could take a division. It certainly didn't happen in 2011 when both the Cards and 9ers did better while the Seahawks were still 7-9. SF of course took the division 13-3. With Seattle still not winning until they were a 3rd year complete rebuild.

As for the obligatory Fisher war bait, that whole discussion is irrelevant to the topic. The topic is, do the current Rams include a large percentage of inherited talent? The answer of course is yes. That's whether everyone likes that fact or not.

Unless you would like me to Thanos Goff, Gurley, Saffold, Donald, and all the others out of existence so everyone can see how they look without them while actually rebuilding from scratch. It's just a fact, this team has a very good proportion of inherited players.

And it's more than that. They managed to get Donald (defensive rookie of the year, then defensive player of the year) and Gurley (offensive rookie of the year, then offensive player of the year) and Goff (pro bowl in his 2nd year) in consecutive drafts. Very few teams have ever done anything like that or its equivalent.

Why not just celebrate it. We're Rams fans. We should be liking the fact that that happened. It should be one of the things we're proud and happy about. That's how I approach it anyway.

There's really nothing to fight here and no good reason to do it.

...

....

 by Elvis
5 years 10 months ago
 Total posts:   38376  
 Joined:  Mar 28 2015
United States of America   Los Angeles
Administrator

It's the turnover on defense i find most shocking.

We're gonna have, what, 2, 3 starters the same as 2016? Donald, Brockers and maybe Barron? That's crazy...

 by R4L
5 years 10 months ago
 Total posts:   1301  
 Joined:  May 08 2017
United States of America   Dayton, Ohio
Pro Bowl

/zn/ wrote:You don't seem to get how the personalized motives attack double-edged sword works.

I showed with facts that this team inherited a lot of key talent.

Your only counter is that I am "sticking up for Fisher." Actually what I am doing is countering your weak argument.

Here's the double edged sword. If I did that kind of thing I could just as easily turn it around and say that you are so blinded by Fisher hate that you cannot cope with facts.

But notice I don't do that. I just show you that the counter argument is stronger. Why? Because it;s not so much that the facts are on my side as I am on the side of the facts.

I wasn't arguing about "Fisher." I was pointing out that this roster includes a large and significant and important portion of inherited talent. Why do I point that out? Because it does. If me saying that sticks in your Fisher craw I don't care about that either way.

This team would not be winning already unless it inherited--and kept--a lot of talent. That's even with the normal system switch effects you get with new coaches.

If you keep up the way you're going, which is to be emotional and personal first and fact-oriented a distant third, fourth, or fifth, then you will not give me a valid answer to the following question:

How far along would this team be last year and now if it did not have and had to find a very good FS, a DT who was also D player of the year, a good veteran DE, Saffold and another 2/5ths of the OL, a franchise qb, and a star RB.

And that;'s leaving out a whole list of important role players, some of whom are league stars at their roles: Hekker, Zuerlein, Cooper, Littleton, and (among other things) a whole complement of D-linemen like Longacre, Westbrooks, and Fox. Etc.

If you can answer that honestly without making it personal I will acknowledge it respectfully.


My weak argument? First off it wasn't personal. I even said it was your right to stand up for him. 2ndly, i don't hate Fisher. I was happy when they hired him but i was mistaken. Answer me these questions: What was Fisher's record with the Rams? Why didn't Fisher win with that roster? Those 2 questions's alone are a strong argument imo. Every coach advocate can come up with excuses why his guy got the raw end of the stick.

There are a lot of assumsions in your post. We don't know if the team would be winning or not without those players.

I'm not saying Fisher didn't gather a good core for McVay to start with because he did, but Fisher overvalued his players. Tavon Austin of course, Ogletree, Eugene Sims and Barron got to much money and Cory Harkey got 3 Mill a year extension and after McVay cut him, no other team wanted him.

 by /zn/
5 years 10 months ago
 Total posts:   6758  
 Joined:  Jun 28 2015
United States of America   Maine
Hall of Fame

R4L wrote:My weak argument? First off it wasn't personal. I even said it was your right to stand up for him. 2ndly, i don't hate Fisher. I was happy when they hired him but i was mistaken. Answer me these questions: What was Fisher's record with the Rams? Why didn't Fisher win with that roster? Those 2 questions's alone are a strong argument imo. Every coach advocate can come up with excuses why his guy got the raw end of the stick.

There are a lot of assumsions in your post. We don't know if the team would be winning or not without those players.

I'm not saying Fisher didn't gather a good core for McVay to start with because he did, but Fisher overvalued his players. Tavon Austin of course, Ogletree, Eugene Sims and Barron got to much money and Cory Harkey got 3 Mill a year extension and after McVay cut him, no other team wanted him.


One of the keys to the success of the 2017/2018 Rams is that they inherited a large dose of top talent. And in fact, they are not acting like they are in "start over and rebuild" mode.

They did adjust the D this year but that was for 2 reasons that are just completely normal: normal FA attrition (which is why the entire starting secondary is new compared to 2015), and normal scheme fit issues (Quinn and Tree, plus there was no guarantee that Quinn would be as productive in 2018 as he was the last 4-5 games of 2017). But that D is built around guys like Joyner, Barron, Donald, and Brockers. Without them they would have nothing like the same defense.

Tree was extended under McVay, not under Fisher, btw.

Honestly, it's really kind of a dream come true. You take a top young coach and add him to a very young and talented team. It's way better than starting over from scratch, which is what we saw in 97, 2009, and 2012.

And the reason that's not a Fisher War issue for me is simple. The Rams draft process is not governed by one guy. It's collaborative, with the GM working to bring in the kinds of players coaches need for their systems. So a lot of that is Snead and it does not get down to one guy just doing it all.

Now that process includes working with McV and Wade, so the addition of great personnel continues. Guys like Cooks, Peters, Talib, and Suh. Those veterans are being added to an already talented team, which is why the Rams are just insane with talent.

That includes things like all 4 principle special teamers making the pro bowl (P, K, LS, PR), which I don't remember ever seeing before.

 by PARAM
5 years 10 months ago
 Total posts:   12181  
 Joined:  Jul 15 2015
Barbados   Just far enough North of Philadelphia
Hall of Fame

/zn/ wrote:One of the keys to the success of the 2017/2018 Rams is that they inherited a large dose of top talent.


Their turnaround was based mostly on the offense. Not the "large dose of top talent they inherited". In fact quite the contrary. Whitworth, Sullivan, Woods, Watkins and Kupp were new starters (lets not even mention Gurley's recommitment to football :roll2: and Goff benefiting from a real NFL-level offensive system :shock2: ). Anytime you replace almost half of one squad it's a huge turnover. Add to the mix, Wade Phillips, an egoless coaching giant with a "true" history of success over his career, extraordinarily so in his first year with a new team, leading the defense. An honest man might say quite the opposite of ego driven, over rated Jeffrey Fisher. Yet with Fisher's guys (sans a CB and S) he produced a great defense. Sorta like the old description of a great coach...."He'll take his guys and beat the crap out of you, then take your guys and beat the crap out of his guys" (or something like that). I don't know why you continue to defend JF. Well really, I do but I'm just amazed at the level of denial you demonstrate.

Occam's Razor......it was Sean McVay at the controls and not Jeffrey Fisher. Not.....players, health, schedule, luck, settling into L.A., recommitment, maturation or anything else.

 by dieterbrock
5 years 10 months ago
 Total posts:   11512  
 Joined:  Mar 31 2015
United States of America   New Jersey
Hall of Fame

/zn/ wrote:
As for the obligatory Fisher war bait....


Well, the thing is, a "war" would require 2 or more opposing views. There is no war here. There is however a reality that is crystal clear, that Fisher failed miserably as a coach due to his offensive ineptitude. Plain as day, without refute. Proven by its long history of seemingly similar results and with the success of players immediately removed from it.
So its one sided, no war. For whatever ill contrived reason, you like to play devil's advocate. Whatever floats your boat, but don't mistake this as a war, or even a disagreement, you give yourself too much credit. Flat earthers seem to have more ground to stand on than this.

/zn/ wrote:There's really nothing to fight here and no good reason to do it.


....

Oh, but you'll keep trying.

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32 posts Mar 28 2024