[Elvis]

BTW, Rams pulled same move with Donald Evans in 1987, reaching for him in the 2nd and then paying him like a 3rd round pick:

http://articles.latimes.com/1987-08-02/ ... eroy-irvin

Rams : Irvin, Evans Finally Get on Board
August 02, 1987|CHRIS DUFRESNE | Times Staff Writer

With London calling and seats on tonight's charter flight going fast, the Rams are tending to the last-minute business of getting player contract squabbles resolved.

Friday, long-time holdout Henry Ellard happily signed a four-year deal. Saturday, holdout LeRoy Irvin unhappily reported to camp, followed later in the day by the Rams' first draft choice, Donald Evans, who flew in from North Carolina and signed a four-year, $800,000 contract late Saturday evening.

"I'm happy it's over but I'm not happy with the deal," Evans said. "It's the lowest deal in the second round, but I didn't want to put my football career in jeopardy. I'm ready to play football, ready to prove to people they made the right deal."

Irvin attended Saturday morning's practice but did not participate because of a sore hamstring. He did listen long and hard to a sideline lecture by Ram Coach John Robinson, the gist of which had to do with Irvin not allowing his attitude to affect his play.

So briefed, the usually loquacious Irvin had a short statement for the press.

"I'm back in camp," Irvin said, "but my problems haven't been resolved. I will fulfill my obligation. I'm not happy, I'm not going to lie to the fans. That's all I'm going to say."

So why did you come back?

"I had to," Irvin said.

The Pro Bowl cornerback was, in fact, under contract and was presumably being fined $1,000 a day since his holdout began last Sunday.

Irvin signed a two-year extension in March that will pay him a $300,000 signing bonus and $700,000 in salaries for the 1988-89 seasons. But Irvin isn't happy with the last year of his present contract, in which he'll receive $250,000. He was obviously moved by the off-season signing of Dallas cornerback Everson Walls, who will earn $700,000 this season.

Asked whether he wanted to be traded, Irvin would only reply, "I don't know."

Robinson would not specifically comment on his conversation with Irvin.

"I assume LeRoy will come in, and when he's 100%, he'll give 100%," Robinson said. "His unhappiness, which I assume is financial, is not relative to his performance on the field."

Robinson said Irvin would likely play in the London exhibition game against the Denver Broncos next Sunday, then added:

"We all have a right to the way we feel, but we don't have the right not to perform at maximum ability as some form of protest. We won't tolerate that, and haven't tolerated that from anybody. That's not a comment on LeRoy. . . . No player is so good that he can go out and not give 100% and not have a detrimental effect on the team."

As for Evans, he arrived in town on Saturday and appeared at the Rams' Cal State Fullerton training camp at 8 p.m., accompanied by agent Steve Weinberg. It was presumed that Evans was there to sign a contract, but three times Evans walked out of the talks held in the office of Jack Faulkner, the team's director of football operations.

Finally, Evans somewhat unhappily agreed to the deal at about 10:20 Saturday night.

While some incentives were included, there weren't as many as he expected.

Ram Notes

The Rams will leave at 7:15 this evening from Los Angeles International Airport, arriving in London's Heathrow Airport Monday at 1 p.m. . . . John Robinson said the London trip deadline may have expedited negotiations with the team's holdouts. "I sense that's true," Robinson said. It appears now that holdout tackle Irv Pankey will be the only Ram to miss the trip. . . . The team's adventurous linebacker, Mel Owens, who has traveled the world and recently ran with the bulls in Pamplona, Spain, said he can't wait to get to London. "It's a civilized New York," Owens said. "I'll do the restaurant scene and the theater scene." And if his teammates want any travel tips, Owens is "selling information at a high cost." . . . Irvin's holdout has given rookie cornerback Clifford Hicks some valuable practice time. Robinson said Hicks will play about a half against the Broncos and also return punts. . . . Free-agent nose tackle Jim Byrne underwent arthroscopic knee surgery Saturday and will be out 6 to 8 weeks.

[/zn/]

I don't recall Brees and Rivers franchises being referred to as losing cultures the way they do with teams like the Browns and Rams.

IMO? That's because the terms "winning culture" and "losing culture" are relatively new buzzwords.

Meanwhile, the Saints were infamously a long term losing team. They began as a team in 1967 and did not have a winning season until 1987.

Just that back then, "losing culture" was not a buzz term.

.

[/zn/]

You said "At least he did that with Fisher." My point is Kroenke is doing it with McVay too. Otherwise we wouldn't have Wade on our staff...

I wasn;'t deliberately excluding the McVay regime from that. I just basically put that wrong. Better to have said "at least as we have seen so far."

[/zn/]

BTW, Rams pulled same move with Donald Evans in 1987, reaching for him in the 2nd and then paying him like a 3rd round pick:
.

Again, I don't buy this stuff.

You don't trade for Everett if you are deliberately gutting a team.

They did hit on a guy now and then like Newberry in 86, who had 2 pro bowls.

Remember, until 97 when Vermeil arrived, they STILL couldn't draft. It was a little better with Knox but then They had 20 picks in 95-96 and ended up with Carter and Wiegert (and Vermeil refused to re-sign Wiegert), plus Phillips, Kennison, Conwell, Banks, and Miller. Add all that up and it;'s really Carter and Miller (though with Conwell the issue was injuries). That's drafting at a lofty rate of 10%, or 15% if you count Conwell.

97-99 it's 48% (slightly rounded up).

The Rams infamously could not draft when it was either Shaw and Robinson or Ortmeyer.

Knox did a little better, Vermeil did a lot better.
...

[Elvis]

Again, I don't buy this stuff.

You don't trade for Everett if you are deliberately gutting a team.

They did hit on a guy now and then like Newberry in 86, who had 2 pro bowls.

Remember, until 97 when Vermeil arrived, they STILL couldn't draft. It was a little better with Knox but then They had 20 picks in 95-96 and ended up with Carter and Wiegert (and Vermeil refused to re-sign Wiegert), plus Phillips, Kennison, Conwell, Banks, and Miller. Add all that up and it;'s really Carter and Miller (though with Conwell the issue was injuries). That's drafting at a lofty rate of 10%, or 15% if you count Conwell.

97-99 it's 48% (slightly rounded up).

I'm not arguing the Rams were deliberately gutting the team.

I'm arguing they were cheap, often to their own detriment. The '86 and '87 drafts are good examples, where they reached with their first picks with the idea of saving money on the contracts...

[/zn/]

I'm not arguing the Rams were deliberately gutting the team.

I'm arguing they were cheap, often to their own detriment. The '86 and '87 drafts are good examples, where they reached with their first picks with the idea of saving money on the contracts...

Well see while I agree they were cheap---Robinson once openly told the story about how Shaw told him that playoffs cost money---I am just not convinced by the idea that they reached for Schad and Evans to save money. It doesn't sound wildly implausible but yeah I am not personally convinced.

But yeah they were cheap. That's what Dickerson rebelled against.

...

[dieterbrock]

There will always be exceptions. Just like bad quarterbacks winning superbowls once in a while. Dilfer and Brad Johnson come to mind.

Although I don't recall Brees and Rivers franchises being referred to as losing cultures the way they do with teams like the Browns and Rams.

Brad Johnson wasn't a bad QB, played in a couple pro-bowls
I'm not sure then what necessitates a losing culture, New Orleans is on 3 straight 7-9 bullcrap years and the Chargers are on their 3rd head coach in 5 years while having only 2 winning seasons in the last 6
The one thing I see consistent with this culture nonsense is that when teams win, are they winning cultures? Are the Raiders a winner now after 1 season winning and a decade of losing?

But I do agree with your main point though that its easier to win with a good QB....

[actionjack]

This team has been a Sheet Show since Martz was fired and they were dog sheet for the 90's until Vermeil's 3rd year. Martz/Armey/Vermeil righted the ship through coaching , draft , free agency and luck. The ownership was not a road block in St Louis

Current, hopefully have a good coach(es) (McVay & Wade), Snead (maybe). Demoff and ownership are willing to spend money, but can they spend it wisely. Were not sure on that one. Can this group elevate the Rams to the playoffs or more? Time will tell.

[PARAM]

The GSOT assent was almost mythical.

This gets over looked. It was almost too good to be true. It was the "perfect storm".

Taking nothing away from TGSOT's storied accomplishments, there were a half dozen things that happened to create 'The Perfect Storm':

Hiring Martz was the first move.
Getting Faulk was the second.
Drafting Holt was the third.
Acquiring Green was the fourth.
Harrison's hit was the fifth along with accidentally discovering Warner. Faulk was the versatile all everything but Warner was the most important. So we could arrange those moves any which way and still, Warner's play was the primary reason TGSOT actually became TGSOT. But that was a pure accident, which makes his story as intriguing as it was. There is no way in hell anybody could have predicted TGSOT and though Vermeil and the front office deserve a huge amount of credit, IMHO that gets severely overstated because few fans like to say "it was half good football sense, half accident".
Lastly, playing in a weak 5 team division didn't hurt. The Rams went 37-11 from 99-01 while the rest of the NFC West went 74-118 (.385; 6 wins per year average). The Rams had 3 winning seasons while the other 4 teams had two in 12 attempts.

Having said all that, I enjoyed every second! But Frontiere shouldn't get an ounce of credit and Shaw not much more. Vermeil? Love the guy. I believe he got it pointed in the right direction but without Martz (who many believe was forced on him; some disagree with that) and Warner (nobody, not even Vermeil knew what they had in KW) his story is no where near as inspiring. Could have easily been 'burned out in Philly, a failure in St. Louis' and most likely KC would never have happened.

A perfect storm. Not cunning coaching, concise drafting or stellar player development any more than any other team. Martz and his aggressiveness combined with the talent he had at his finger tips was cunning. Remove the talent, ie, substitute Green for Warner and I'm not confident history, with relation to TGSOT remains the same. They would still have been very, very good but with Warner they were legendary. He was practically perfect in 99.

And so based on that, Frontiere's tenure as Rams owner had an overwhelming amount of bad and a minute amount of great, thanks to one partly accidental flash in the pan. Again JMHO.

As far as "culture", like some have already said.....win and it's a winning culture. Lose and we're still SOSAR.....the losing culture.

[dieterbrock]

This gets over looked. It was almost too good to be true. It was the "perfect storm".

Taking nothing away from TGSOT's storied accomplishments, there were a half dozen things that happened to create 'The Perfect Storm':

Hiring Martz was the first move.
Getting Faulk was the second.
Drafting Holt was the third.
Acquiring Green was the fourth.
Harrison's hit was the fifth along with accidentally discovering Warner.

Great post Pa, I just think that you cant leave Adam Timmerman's signing off that list!