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 by dieterbrock
5 years 11 months ago
 Total posts:   11512  
 Joined:  Mar 31 2015
United States of America   New Jersey
Hall of Fame

Hacksaw wrote:Of course he didn't have mad Mike, Bruce, Holt or Marshall in NY. The GSOT was clearly more than just Warner.

If he was planning too, that thumb of his could affect his future plans to hitchhike America. It sure derailed his career.

Not sure what Mike, Bruce, Holt or Marshall have to do with his inability to throw the ball outside the hash. And in all fairness, he did have Tiki Barber in the backfield, and targets of Shockey, Toomer and Hilliard to throw to. Not in the GSOT class, but not a bunch of jags either. Point was and is, Warner was a shell of himself in NY and his first few seasons in Arizona as well. Talent around him notwithstanding

 by Hacksaw
5 years 11 months ago
 Total posts:   24523  
 Joined:  Apr 15 2015
United States of America   AT THE BEACH
Moderator

dieterbrock wrote:Not sure what Mike, Bruce, Holt or Marshall have to do with his inability to throw the ball outside the hash. And in all fairness, he did have Tiki Barber in the backfield, and targets of Shockey, Toomer and Hilliard to throw to. Not in the GSOT class, but not a bunch of jags either. Point was and is, Warner was a shell of himself in NY and his first few seasons in Arizona as well. Talent around him notwithstanding


I wasn't countering your point DB.

imo MM was the glue and those other guys all contributed to Warner's success. That thumb really derailed him and to expect the same level of play afterward was probably hopeful...

 by moklerman
5 years 11 months ago
 Total posts:   7680  
 Joined:  Apr 17 2015
United States of America   Bakersfield, CA
Hall of Fame

dieterbrock wrote:Not sure what Mike, Bruce, Holt or Marshall have to do with his inability to throw the ball outside the hash. And in all fairness, he did have Tiki Barber in the backfield, and targets of Shockey, Toomer and Hilliard to throw to. Not in the GSOT class, but not a bunch of jags either. Point was and is, Warner was a shell of himself in NY and his first few seasons in Arizona as well. Talent around him notwithstanding
Tiki was out of his mind. He was already a good RB but it all came together for him that year. He cured his fumbling issues and really took his game to the next level. It's really too bad for him that the Giants weren't really a complete team during that time. Somewhat wasted 3 of the better seasons a RB's ever had as he had 2,000+ total yard each year and scored 30+ TD.

Toomer was looking old and I think was dealing with a hamstring most of that season so I wouldn't count him as a "name" at that point. Hilliard was JAG. Shockey was always inconsistent but this was one of his more down years IMO. Dropped a lot of crucial passes.

On top of all of that, it was not an offense tailored to Warner at all. I don't really agree that he couldn't throw it to the sidelines(any more or less than he ever could) but regardless of that, it was just a conservative, run-first offense that had Warner only attempting 27 passes per game.

 by rams74
5 years 11 months ago
 Total posts:   1460  
 Joined:  Nov 19 2015
Italy   Glendale, Arizona
Pro Bowl

moklerman wrote:Tiki was out of his mind. He was already a good RB but it all came together for him that year. He cured his fumbling issues and really took his game to the next level. It's really too bad for him that the Giants weren't really a complete team during that time. Somewhat wasted 3 of the better seasons a RB's ever had as he had 2,000+ total yard each year and scored 30+ TD.

Toomer was looking old and I think was dealing with a hamstring most of that season so I wouldn't count him as a "name" at that point. Hilliard was JAG. Shockey was always inconsistent but this was one of his more down years IMO. Dropped a lot of crucial passes.

On top of all of that, it was not an offense tailored to Warner at all. I don't really agree that he couldn't throw it to the sidelines(any more or less than he ever could) but regardless of that, it was just a conservative, run-first offense that had Warner only attempting 27 passes per game.


Toomer was one of Kurt's best friends on that Giants team, but on the field he wasn't his friend. Kurt would hit him in the hands, and Toomer would drop it. Shockey the same. Hilliard was ok. But no, that offense was ill-suited to Warner's skills.

In the end, we all seem to have pretty clearly delineated ideas of who Kurt Warner is, and was as a player. Everybody's got an opinion on him, and nobody is being swayed at this late date by anybody else's opinion.

 by moklerman
5 years 11 months ago
 Total posts:   7680  
 Joined:  Apr 17 2015
United States of America   Bakersfield, CA
Hall of Fame

rams74 wrote:Toomer was one of Kurt's best friends on that Giants team, but on the field he wasn't his friend. Kurt would hit him in the hands, and Toomer would drop it. Shockey the same. Hilliard was ok. But no, that offense was ill-suited to Warner's skills.

In the end, we all seem to have pretty clearly delineated ideas of who Kurt Warner is, and was as a player. Everybody's got an opinion on him, and nobody is being swayed at this late date by anybody else's opinion.
I remember the Giants were in the #1 wild card spot that year when they decided to bench Warner for Eli. Many players spoke up in his defense and questioned the move. But that was not a good year for the Giants receiving corps and even they knew it.

Which isn't to say that Kurt was blameless in his struggles. He needed all the help he could get. Toomer and company didn't come through though.

 by dieterbrock
5 years 11 months ago
 Total posts:   11512  
 Joined:  Mar 31 2015
United States of America   New Jersey
Hall of Fame

moklerman wrote:Tiki was out of his mind. He was already a good RB but it all came together for him that year. He cured his fumbling issues and really took his game to the next level. It's really too bad for him that the Giants weren't really a complete team during that time. Somewhat wasted 3 of the better seasons a RB's ever had as he had 2,000+ total yard each year and scored 30+ TD.

Toomer was looking old and I think was dealing with a hamstring most of that season so I wouldn't count him as a "name" at that point. Hilliard was JAG. Shockey was always inconsistent but this was one of his more down years IMO. Dropped a lot of crucial passes.

On top of all of that, it was not an offense tailored to Warner at all. I don't really agree that he couldn't throw it to the sidelines(any more or less than he ever could) but regardless of that, it was just a conservative, run-first offense that had Warner only attempting 27 passes per game.

All I know is that I watched 3 games that season in person (In my Rams #13 Warner jersey) and it was painful to watch. No bigger fan of KW than me and it was sad to watch him try and chuck it.
Tiki really came on that year, the offensive line was pretty good back then. Pettigout, Snee, Ohara etc.

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166 posts Mar 28 2024